Is black plate worth it?

jaif · #1 November 2nd, 2007, 06:00 PM

Sounds like we have opposite situations. :-) My fights often go the distance, and gold is rarely an issue. Gems - sure. Resources - sometimes. But gold? Only on desperate turns (e.g. need to build that castle and field an emergency force on the wrong end of the map).

One thing I noticed - I never build black lords. It costs too much to lose them. You and I seem to do that different, so maybe that's a tactical change that I need to try.

-Jeff

BesucherXia · #2 November 2nd, 2007, 06:41 PM

I will say the best comparation between ressource and gold can be made if we watch order and productivity dominion:

order 3: income+21%
vs
productivity 3: income+6% resource+45%

a chainmail unit costs resource about 20 while blackplate usually about 30,henceforce, this extra 45% res is just a "must" to make up for blackplate's disadvantage.

so for me, I will not choose 40 black plate infantry, but 40 chainmail men and take that 60 extra gold for 2 more scouts. Or how about 40 chainmail units+PD11(cost 66 gold) vs 40 Blackplate ones?

even for ma ulm itself, my conclusion is using chain mail and order 3, forget black plate and productivity 3. If you have much too gold becauseof the limitation from res, just save it for another castle or mercenaries.

silhouette · #3 November 2nd, 2007, 07:54 PM

I like the idea of making the black steel armors all just ignore the armor piercing effect -- call it a new attribute "hardened". It doesn't make them uber or at all enhanced vs mundane opponents, but negates the AP advantages of many opponents first choice anti-high-prot strategies (crossbows, fire evocations, fire bless, thugs with AP swords, and the weapons of sharpness enchantment). And it can add synergy with their own arbalests and fire magic from smiths. (Would not affect AN attacks).

Sill

CUnknown · #4 November 2nd, 2007, 08:27 PM

Silhouette, yes! I love that idea, about "hardened." Armor-negating attacks would still work as normal, of course, so there would still be good counters available.

You wouldn't have to change anything else about the black plates (although I've love to see a slight morale boost), and they would certainly be worth the resources at that point.

CUnknown · #5 November 3rd, 2007, 12:11 AM

Test with Man Knights:

I tested this 3 times each with 18 knights and 40 Ulm Inf (morningstar) and with 18 knights and 40 Black Plates.

Ulm lost all 6 battles.

The Infantry of Ulm lost an average of 33.7 guys and killed an average of 4.3 knights. They lasted an average of 5.7 rounds of beatings before they routed.

The Black Plates lost an average of 31.3 guys and killed an average of 4.7 knights. They lasted an average of 6.3 rounds of beatings before they routed.

So, the Black Plates fared slightly better in this test, but not as better as I was hoping. They did marginally better on all counts. I will leave it to you guys as to whether you think the slight improvement is worth the extra resources.

Lord_Drakken · #6 November 3rd, 2007, 09:21 PM

I know I am not a long time veteran of these forums or anything... but if you are not having money problems in this game then you don't have enough forces on board. Resources are not the limiting factor in this game, gold is. Unused resources are lost gold is stored. Upkeep is only in gold and that is what limits your force size.

This being said I will take the black plate. It is as an archer shield that they are useful. the Arbelasts do a decent job of harming the enemy along with any mounted troops. Throw in a little magic to reinvigorate the black plate and they love you long time...

Someone do a test with archers pelting chain vs plate for a period of time and watch the results. They will be much more dramatic...

Sombre · #7 November 4th, 2007, 12:25 AM

Well obviously black plate is better vs archers. But is it that much better than chain + shield that you want to use an extra 10 resources on it? Hell no.

And in my experience resources are a serious limiting factor in the early game. Gold is also a limit, but when you're trying to grab indies and possibly muscle another nation, high resource cost is a serious factor. If you're taking prod 3 then that's even more that resource costs are limiting you, actually taking away design points. After the early game, these troops basically become useless anyway, because battlemagic renders them largely obsolete. Sure you can use them as a walking shield, but there are better units for that purpose, including (imo) the chainmail guys, who you can replace quicker.