OOBs way out of whack?

[pdoktar]

Deputy said:

US Infantry dug in? Sjouldn't matter hardly at all. Two direct hits with an 88 on the Infantry hex and they should either be eliminated or in flight and disperced.
Dep

You are probbly talking this when the prefences for american infantry is set to min. Because in a 50x50meter area that a hex represents, two 88mm HE shells will not rout a normal infantry squad in real life, shrapnel may not even hit anyone or explosion cause slight concussions. Otherwise infantry would be so useless in combat that everybody should only be using tanks and aircraft etc.

Hence everybody around the world is screaming all the time for bigger guns and airburst rounds and more HE effect on the target. A normal infantry squad is hard to remove / rout from any terrain with just two 88mm shots.

[DRG]

Oh please........

Chucky only quotes the sources that support his ideas. Don't forget how quick he was to support your "death rays attached to the bombs" theory which you later retracted.

You barely understand the way the game works and yet are willing to jump in and modify weapon data based on who knows what preferences settings. It's "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" all over again. I can only imagine what's next.

What Andy told you was the change he made to the code lowers a first shot to hit when the preferences are set to 30% from the existing "10-11%" to "6-7% "....... OK ? When the preferences are set normally that would only be about a 14% chance So IF he puts that change in anyone who cranks the preferences down to 30% ( only you that I know about.....) will only see a 4-5 % change in the first shot to hit from what they see now when it's set to 30%. At best you'd go from 1 chance in 10 of hitting to 1 chance in 15 or thereabouts. It doesn't even begin to explain what you described in your first post and the dramatic difference between what you claim is happening in your game and what I saw and what Marek documented in his post.

I am STILL waiting for that preferences.INI that you told me was going to be posted "ASAP"

Don

[Deputy]

DRG said:
Oh please........

Chucky only quotes the sources that support his ideas. Don't forget how quick he was to support your "death rays attached to the bombs" theory which you later retracted.

You barely understand the way the game works and yet are willing to jump in and modify weapon data based on who knows what preferences settings. It's "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" all over again. I can only imagine what's next.

What Andy told you was the change he made to the code lowers a first shot to hit when the preferences are set to 30% from the existing "10-11%" to "6-7% "....... OK ? When the preferences are set normally that would only be about a 14% chance So IF he puts that change in anyone who cranks the preferences down to 30% ( only you that I know about.....) will only see a 4-5 % change in the first shot to hit from what they see now when it's set to 30%. At best you'd go from 1 chance in 10 of hitting to 1 chance in 15 or thereabouts. It doesn't even begin to explain what you described in your first post and the dramatic difference between what you claim is happening in your game and what I saw and what Marek documented in his post.

I am STILL waiting for that preferences.INI that you told me was going to be posted "ASAP"

Don

I know what every other consumer who buy this game knows. I know how the old Steel Panthers works and how WinSPMBT works. I know how SPWAW works at a consumer level. I should NOT need to have to learn programming code in order to learn what is not working correctly in the game. Unless the code in this game differs substantially from the other two games, something is definitely WRONG here. If you want to continue to swim in DeNial, feel free. All those percentages and hit chance estimates shouldn't mean squat if all the preferences are cranked up to give one side total advantage. And if there is a problem with giving one side total advantage and it doesn't work, then the problem is going to exist throughout the preferences settings. I have checked some weapons settings for the MG42 and 98K Mauser and they are just plain WRONG. It seems like whoever set the weapons numbers wanted to make sure the Allies won no matter what the Preference settings. And just to make your day (since I was at the Doctor most of mine), here's your precious Preferences.ini info:

[PREFERENCES]
PREF_HIDDEN_FIRE=1
PREF_MUSIC=1
PREF_OBJ_FLAGS=1
PREF_SOUND=1
PREF_ID_TAG=1
PREF_HEX_SIDE=1
PREF_AUTO_RALLY=1
PREF_ANIMATION=1
PREF_MOVE_RADIUS=1
PREF_USER_PREF=1
PREF_BREAK=0
PREF_AMMO=0
PREF_COMMAND=1
PREF_MORALE=1
PREF_SPOTTER=1
PREF_MOVE_SHOOT=1
PREF_MINES=1
PREF_COUNTRY_EXP=1
PREF_SOUND_VOL=2
PREF_ANIM_LEVEL=4
PREF_DELAY=1
PREF_SPOT0=250
PREF_SPOT1=30
PREF_HIT0=250
PREF_HIT1=30
PREF_ROUT0=250
PREF_ROUT1=30
PREF_TROOP_QUAL0=70
PREF_TROOP_QUAL1=70
PREF_TANK_TOUGH0=250
PREF_TANK_TOUGH1=30
PREF_INF_TOUGH0=250
PREF_INF_TOUGH1=30
PREF_ARTY_EFFECT=100
PREF_MAP_WIDTH=50
PREF_FAST_ART=1
PREF_POINT0=0
PREF_POINT1=0
PREF_AIR0=-1
PREF_AIR1=-1
PREF_AITKHVY=1
PREF_MAP_HEIGHT=50

[Deputy]

I've been investigating some of the number setting for the weapons in WinSPWW2 and came out with some really odd stuff.

For instance...the HE Kill numbers for the German MP38/40 9MM submachinegune is 5. The HE Kill numbers for the 98K rifle are 1. According to the help manual... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!."
Oops!!!! Here's an instance where bigger ISN'T better. By this type of thinking, pistol ammo is more deadly than rifle ammo. Sorry....that just ain't so. This isn't measuring multiple hits by the submachinegun, it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans. More and more I think the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct.

Dep

[evan]

Deputy said:


For instance...the HE Kill numbers for the German MP38/40 9MM submachinegune is 5. The HE Kill numbers for the 98K rifle are 1. According to the help manual... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!."
Oops!!!! Here's an instance where bigger ISN'T better. By this type of thinking, pistol ammo is more deadly than rifle ammo. Sorry....that just ain't so. This isn't measuring multiple hits by the submachinegun, it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans. More and more I think the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct.

Dep

And if you look at the British OOB you'll find the same thing when you compare the Lee Enfield .303 and the Thompson gun. I think that you might find the rate of fire comes into the calculation at this point. Both rifles being bolt action and the MP38/40 not being so.

Just a thought.

I agree however that this can be a frustrating game and requires a more thoughtful and paitent attitude that even other variants of the game.

Evan

[Deputy]

evan said:

And if you look at the British OOB you'll find the same thing when you compare the Lee Enfield .303 and the Thompson gun. I think that you might find the rate of fire comes into the calculation at this point. Both rifles being bolt action and the MP38/40 not being so.

Just a thought.

I agree however that this can be a frustrating game and requires a more thoughtful and paitent attitude that even other variants of the game.

Evan

Hi Evan: The HE Kill number is a pretty strange thing that must encompass a good deal of "opinions" and hidden estimates in it. The help file ONLY states "bigger is better". It doesn't say anything about rate or voulme of fire. From the way it's set right now, the MP40 becomes MORE deadly (meaning more KILLING POWER) than the 98K rifle cartridge. Even worse, the weapon ranges for submachineguns are just plain crazy. The submachinegun is an excellent CLOSE RANGE weapon for use in close assaults or in house-to-house fighting. But it's maximum effective range is only about 50 meters (1/2 a football field) in real life. Beyond that, you'd end up firing it like a mortar and it's accuracy as well as killing power would drop to zero.
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least. Even then, it would be iffy as far as number of kills. If both opponents were at the opposite sides of the hex, I doubt the submachingun would do anything more than just make noise. But we do have to allow SOME stretch of realism for gameplay's sake. It's just the current settings are stretched too far. The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range. No way!!

Dep

[Double_Deuce]

Deputy said:
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least.

Last time I checked hexes in WinSP were not representing 250 meters.

[DRG]

Deputy said:


<snip>
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least. Even then, it would be iffy as far as number of kills. If both opponents were at the opposite sides of the hex, I doubt the submachingun would do anything more than just make noise. But we do have to allow SOME stretch of realism for gameplay's sake. It's just the current settings are stretched too far. The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range. No way!!

Dep

It just gets better and better. This further confirms what I said earlier, you barely understand the way the game works but know all about whats "wrong" with it and here's a glaring example. Each hex in the game is 50 metres/yards across, not "250 meters across".

Maybe printing out the game guide and READING it might be helpful to you ?

Don

[Mobhack]

The Game Guide is the game manual, and can be acessed through the "help" tab of the Game Options programme, by clicking on the "Read The Game Manual" link.

The GG will launch in your browser (it is an HTML document).

The "introduction" section can be scrolled down to (it is the first section of text in the GG), or jumped to, via the links section on the LHS of the screen - it is the very first link. It contains information on the game scale.

Additionally, you can set the game to report ranges in most cases in either hexes, yards, or metres to taste, by toggling the "Show Most Ranges in" button on the game options form's "Misc" tab.

Only SP version 3 at the brigade level of combat, used a 200 metre hex.

[Marek_Tucan]

Deputy said:
The help file ONLY states "bigger is better".

And you're reading too much between the lines. Given quote means exactly that Bigger (HE kill, since that's what the paragraph is about) is better. Hard to argue with that as the bigger HE kill the bigger chance your enemy snuffeth it, ie the better. Note it doesn't touch caliber, RoF, range... Just HE kill value which is derived primarily from weapon class - MOST SMG's have HEK 5 due to their high rate of fire, contrary to bolt-action rifles (HEK 1) or self-loading rifles (HEK 2).

It doesn't say anything about rate or voulme of fire. From the way it's set right now, the MP40 becomes MORE deadly (meaning more KILLING POWER) than the 98K rifle cartridge.

One would think that if in SMG range, a burst of 9mm may be well more deadly than one 7.92mm bullet. If for nothing else then for more lead flying in the air. Or did you think SMG's in the game are single-shot?

Even worse, the weapon ranges for submachineguns are just plain crazy.

Really?

The submachinegun is an excellent CLOSE RANGE weapon for use in close assaults or in house-to-house fighting.

Agreed.

But it's maximum effective range is only about 50 meters (1/2 a football field) in real life.

Or more, depending on weapon.

Beyond that, you'd end up firing it like a mortar and it's accuracy as well as killing power would drop to zero.

Killing power is still there. Stray pistol bullets may cause serious harm well beyond handgun effective range. And actually atleast to me it too often happens that at ranges over 1 hex firing SMG's can be likened to watering garden with your eyes blindfolded - you are guaranteed to hit the map.

Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous.

DISCLAIMER: 1 Hex in original Steel Panthers was intended to be 25 meters, in late stages of development upped to 50 meters. In no Steel Panthers series games the hex is 250 meters, only in SP3:Brigade command it's 200 meters (ie four SP1/2/WAW/MBT/WW2 hexes). A little of boring calcullations would show you that game with rifle ranges of 2500 meters, bazooka ranges of 1500 meters and such would be strange, however if you divide the values by 5 shrinking hex to 50 meters it'd begin to make sense.

The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range.

IE 150 meters. On the far side a bit hard to it anything with aimed fire, yet SMG squad firing may create a decent beaten zone to push enemy head's down at the very least.