OOBs way out of whack?

[Deputy]

evan said:

And if you look at the British OOB you'll find the same thing when you compare the Lee Enfield .303 and the Thompson gun. I think that you might find the rate of fire comes into the calculation at this point. Both rifles being bolt action and the MP38/40 not being so.

Just a thought.

I agree however that this can be a frustrating game and requires a more thoughtful and paitent attitude that even other variants of the game.

Evan

Hi Evan: The HE Kill number is a pretty strange thing that must encompass a good deal of "opinions" and hidden estimates in it. The help file ONLY states "bigger is better". It doesn't say anything about rate or voulme of fire. From the way it's set right now, the MP40 becomes MORE deadly (meaning more KILLING POWER) than the 98K rifle cartridge. Even worse, the weapon ranges for submachineguns are just plain crazy. The submachinegun is an excellent CLOSE RANGE weapon for use in close assaults or in house-to-house fighting. But it's maximum effective range is only about 50 meters (1/2 a football field) in real life. Beyond that, you'd end up firing it like a mortar and it's accuracy as well as killing power would drop to zero.
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least. Even then, it would be iffy as far as number of kills. If both opponents were at the opposite sides of the hex, I doubt the submachingun would do anything more than just make noise. But we do have to allow SOME stretch of realism for gameplay's sake. It's just the current settings are stretched too far. The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range. No way!!

Dep

[Double_Deuce]

Deputy said:
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least.

Last time I checked hexes in WinSP were not representing 250 meters.

[Deputy]

Double_Deuce said:

Last time I checked hexes in WinSP were not representing 250 meters.

You're right...they're 50 meters . But the fact remains that subguns shouldn't be able to fire accurately or effectively out of the hex they're locates in. How do I know? I own and shoot two Thompsons

[DRG]

Deputy said:


<snip>
Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous. In other words, to actually get any kills with a submachinegun, you should need to be IN THE SAME HEX, at the very least. Even then, it would be iffy as far as number of kills. If both opponents were at the opposite sides of the hex, I doubt the submachingun would do anything more than just make noise. But we do have to allow SOME stretch of realism for gameplay's sake. It's just the current settings are stretched too far. The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range. No way!!

Dep

It just gets better and better. This further confirms what I said earlier, you barely understand the way the game works but know all about whats "wrong" with it and here's a glaring example. Each hex in the game is 50 metres/yards across, not "250 meters across".

Maybe printing out the game guide and READING it might be helpful to you ?

Don

[Deputy]

DRG said:

It just gets better and better. This further confirms what I said earlier, you barely understand the way the game works but know all about whats "wrong" with it and here's a glaring example. Each hex in the game is 50 metres/yards across, not "250 meters across".

Maybe printing out the game guide and READING it might be helpful to you ?

Don

I saw that after it was pointed out by someone else. Doesn't change a thing. Subguns should NOT be able to fire further than 50 meters. Do you OWN a subgun? Ever fired one? I own TWO and have fired them both at a shooting range and in a REAL war. And I'm not talking about "virtual" subguns in computer games.

[pdoktar]

In what war did you fire your two subguns? Considering they are the same Thompsons. I concur with you that a 2.36in bazooka should not be able nominally penetrate Tigers front armor. However many of us have military experience also and have fired enough different military weapons to be able to see that this game has point in it´s HE kill, accuracy, pen and range ratings. Submachine guns are able in real life to somewhat effectively fire for 150meters. However of course their power is truly appreciated below 100meter distances. I myself have fired the 9x19 Suomi SMG and it was much easier to control with short bursts than a 7,62x39 assault rifle when firing even shorter bursts.

Stop BOASTING with YOUR EXPERIENCE and start arguing then you´ll get your commments taken more seriously.

[Deputy]

pdoktar said:
In what war did you fire your two subguns? Considering they are the same Thompsons. I concur with you that a 2.36in bazooka should not be able nominally penetrate Tigers front armor. However many of us have military experience also and have fired enough different military weapons to be able to see that this game has point in it´s HE kill, accuracy, pen and range ratings. Submachine guns are able in real life to somewhat effectively fire for 150meters. However of course their power is truly appreciated below 100meter distances. I myself have fired the 9x19 Suomi SMG and it was much easier to control with short bursts than a 7,62x39 assault rifle when firing even shorter bursts.

Stop BOASTING with YOUR EXPERIENCE and start arguing then you´ll get your commments taken more seriously.

M1928A1 Thompson in Viet Nam. M1A1 at a gun range. And they are NOT identical. The 1928A1 has a much higher cyclic rate. I have no idea what "somewhat effectively" means. A subgun has crude sights at best. The Lyman sights that used to come on the 1928A1 were a bit of a joke. Expensive, delicate sights that were rarely if ever used in combat.
Achieveing multiple hits ona target with a sungun at 150 meters would be nothing short of spectacular. And multiple hits on a target are what a subgun NEEDS to be effective.
9MM and .45ACP FMJ rounds are not known for being outstanding manstoppers. The .45ACP is better, but only because of the larger hole it makes. I wasn't boasting my experience...it's a fact. And I put more stock in personal experience than numerical theories based on varying information from books. I do agree with Chuck that the Ian Hogg books are the most informative and useful. I wish folks who created this game consulted with some live survivors or at the least read some WW2 history books about weapon's abilities and intended uses before they plugged in the numbers that are in there right now. I hope SOMEBODY has reworked the OOB weapons files and the file is available for others to use. If not, I'll just keep changing the numbers until they eventually are more accurate and representative on real world numbers.

Dep

[thatguy96]

Deputy said:
M1928A1 Thompson in Viet Nam. M1A1 at a gun range. And they are NOT identical. The 1928A1 has a much higher cyclic rate.

I am curious as to the circumstances of your use of a M1928A1 in Southeast Asia.

[Deputy]

thatguy96 said:

I am curious as to the circumstances of your use of a M1928A1 in Southeast Asia.

I was there in 1968-1969, 2nd Btn, 60th Regt., 9th Infantry Division. We had various weapons assigned to locations in our forward base camp for use when we were there for bunker and tower guard duty. They included M14 rifles with automatic selector switches and the normal M60 and M2 HB machineguns. At the entrance/front gate to our camp we had two Thompson 1928A1 Subguns. At that time the M16 rifle was still suffering all kinds of problems with jamming, so it was thought the Thompson, which had proved to be quite reliable on full auto, would be better served at that location. I believe we bought them from a local ARVN unit that was still using WW2 era weapons. I was lucky enough to be selected to make sure they were in proper firing order so I got a goodly amount of range time. During the Tet offensive I spent one unpleasant evening up all night blasting away with the Tommygun. It never malfunctioned the whole time.

Dep

[Mobhack]

The Game Guide is the game manual, and can be acessed through the "help" tab of the Game Options programme, by clicking on the "Read The Game Manual" link.

The GG will launch in your browser (it is an HTML document).

The "introduction" section can be scrolled down to (it is the first section of text in the GG), or jumped to, via the links section on the LHS of the screen - it is the very first link. It contains information on the game scale.

Additionally, you can set the game to report ranges in most cases in either hexes, yards, or metres to taste, by toggling the "Show Most Ranges in" button on the game options form's "Misc" tab.

Only SP version 3 at the brigade level of combat, used a 200 metre hex.