OOBs way out of whack?

[Marek_Tucan]

Deputy said:
The help file ONLY states "bigger is better".

And you're reading too much between the lines. Given quote means exactly that Bigger (HE kill, since that's what the paragraph is about) is better. Hard to argue with that as the bigger HE kill the bigger chance your enemy snuffeth it, ie the better. Note it doesn't touch caliber, RoF, range... Just HE kill value which is derived primarily from weapon class - MOST SMG's have HEK 5 due to their high rate of fire, contrary to bolt-action rifles (HEK 1) or self-loading rifles (HEK 2).

It doesn't say anything about rate or voulme of fire. From the way it's set right now, the MP40 becomes MORE deadly (meaning more KILLING POWER) than the 98K rifle cartridge.

One would think that if in SMG range, a burst of 9mm may be well more deadly than one 7.92mm bullet. If for nothing else then for more lead flying in the air. Or did you think SMG's in the game are single-shot?

Even worse, the weapon ranges for submachineguns are just plain crazy.

Really?

The submachinegun is an excellent CLOSE RANGE weapon for use in close assaults or in house-to-house fighting.

Agreed.

But it's maximum effective range is only about 50 meters (1/2 a football field) in real life.

Or more, depending on weapon.

Beyond that, you'd end up firing it like a mortar and it's accuracy as well as killing power would drop to zero.

Killing power is still there. Stray pistol bullets may cause serious harm well beyond handgun effective range. And actually atleast to me it too often happens that at ranges over 1 hex firing SMG's can be likened to watering garden with your eyes blindfolded - you are guaranteed to hit the map.

Since each hex is 250 meters across (273 yards), longer than 2 1/2 football fields, any submachinegun killing anything beyond the hex IT'S LOCATED IN, is simply ridiculous.

DISCLAIMER: 1 Hex in original Steel Panthers was intended to be 25 meters, in late stages of development upped to 50 meters. In no Steel Panthers series games the hex is 250 meters, only in SP3:Brigade command it's 200 meters (ie four SP1/2/WAW/MBT/WW2 hexes). A little of boring calcullations would show you that game with rifle ranges of 2500 meters, bazooka ranges of 1500 meters and such would be strange, however if you divide the values by 5 shrinking hex to 50 meters it'd begin to make sense.

The Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range.

IE 150 meters. On the far side a bit hard to it anything with aimed fire, yet SMG squad firing may create a decent beaten zone to push enemy head's down at the very least.

[Deputy]

Marek_Tucan said:

And you're reading too much between the lines. Given quote means exactly that Bigger (HE kill, since that's what the paragraph is about) is better. Hard to argue with that as the bigger HE kill the bigger chance your enemy snuffeth it, ie the better. Note it doesn't touch caliber, RoF, range... Just HE kill value which is derived primarily from weapon class - MOST SMG's have HEK 5 due to their high rate of fire, contrary to bolt-action rifles (HEK 1) or self-loading rifles (HEK 2).

One would think that if in SMG range, a burst of 9mm may be well more deadly than one 7.92mm bullet. If for nothing else then for more lead flying in the air. Or did you think SMG's in the game are single-shot?

Really?

Agreed.

Or more, depending on weapon.

Killing power is still there. Stray pistol bullets may cause serious harm well beyond handgun effective range. And actually atleast to me it too often happens that at ranges over 1 hex firing SMG's can be likened to watering garden with your eyes blindfolded - you are guaranteed to hit the map.

DISCLAIMER: 1 Hex in original Steel Panthers was intended to be 25 meters, in late stages of development upped to 50 meters. In no Steel Panthers series games the hex is 250 meters, only in SP3:Brigade command it's 200 meters (ie four SP1/2/WAW/MBT/WW2 hexes). A little of boring calcullations would show you that game with rifle ranges of 2500 meters, bazooka ranges of 1500 meters and such would be strange, however if you divide the values by 5 shrinking hex to 50 meters it'd begin to make sense.

IE 150 meters. On the far side a bit hard to it anything with aimed fire, yet SMG squad firing may create a decent beaten zone to push enemy head's down at the very least.

I admit I was off on the hex sizes, but I maintain that the subgun ranges are still too generous.
High rate of fire in a subgun does NOT equate to more kill potential. Other factors like controllability come into effect. "Spray and pray" may work in the movies and for gangbangers, but for military use it is frowned upon as wasting ammunition. It is NOT taught even in machingune training. It has been repeatedly proven that aimed, rapid semi-auto fire is much more effective at actually killing people than full auto fire out of any handheld weapon.
The subguns is deadly in CERTAIN instances. The Soviets made excellent use of them in house-to-house fighting and close assault combat. But a sungun is NOT a "handy rifle". At ranges beyond 50 meters/yards, it's pretty useless. The 9mm as well as the .45ACp drops rather rapidly the further out it goes. They are PISTOL CARTRIDGES, not rifle cartridges. Again...lots of lead flying in the air is great for suppressive fire, but you need that lead to be ACCURATE to be effecive. The maximum range for the subguns in WinSPWW2 shouldn't be more than the hex they are located in. Beyond that, they are just noisemakers. The weapon that was actually USED for suppressive fire in WW2 was the Browning machinegun or the MG42.
BTW...more Infantry were killed by artillery than ANY other weapon in WW2.

Dep

[pdoktar]

Deputy said:

ranges beyond 50 meters/yards, it's pretty useless. The 9mm as well as the .45ACp drops rather rapidly the further out it goes. They are PISTOL CARTRIDGES, not rifle cartridges.

Dep

They are pistol cartridges that are fired with much longer barrels from SMGs than pistols, giving more velocity and basic accuracy. Sometimes SMG cartridges were made specially for submachineguns, with more powerful powder, because that gave even more mv compared to regular pistols. Also SMG sight arrangement, even only because of the longer distance of the aft and front sights make them inherently more accurate that any pistol. When you are thinking of a weapon where it should not have range past the same hex it is located in the game considers this range 0hex=0meters. So 1hex range is actually max range of 50meters, like hand grenades, infantry flamethrowers, pistols etc.

[Deputy]

pdoktar said:

They are pistol cartridges that are fired with much longer barrels from SMGs than pistols, giving more velocity and basic accuracy. Sometimes SMG cartridges were made specially for submachineguns, with more powerful powder, because that gave even more mv compared to regular pistols. Also SMG sight arrangement, even only because of the longer distance of the aft and front sights make them inherently more accurate that any pistol. When you are thinking of a weapon where it should not have range past the same hex it is located in the game considers this range 0hex=0meters. So 1hex range is actually max range of 50meters, like hand grenades, infantry flamethrowers, pistols etc.

Sounds nice in theory, but simply not true. The barrel of the 1911A1 .45ACP pistol Uncle Sammie used was 5 inches long. It gave a velocity of 800fps. The barrel on the Thompson Submachinegun was 10 inches long. It's velocity was around 920fps. Not enough to make a significant difference in bullet performance. Not even enough to make the bullet go supersonic. And that velocity dropped off VERY RAPIDLY the further away from the muzzle that heavy (230 grain) non-aerodynamic cartridge went. I know of special steel-cased .45ACP ammo used by Uncle Sam. But that was used in ALL .45ACP cartridges because brass was in short supply. It didn't travel any faster than normal brass ammo. There a limit to how much "oomph" you can boost a cartridge case to before you start destroying parts or getting ruptured case heads. Accuracy and subguns simply aren't compatible in WW2 designs. The MP40 used a crude non-adjustable V notch and blade front sight. The Lyman sight that came on the early Thompsons was dropped in favor of a crude plate with a peep hole and a blade front sight. It was cheaper to produce and just as effective as the Lyman sight. If you've never fired a full automatic weapon, it's hard to convey the way it jumps around in your hand. The l;ast version of the Thompson was the M1A1. It fired from an open bolt, much the same as the MP40. The weight os that massive bolt slamming forward every time it fired pretty much made sights more cosmetic than functional. It's pretty difficult to find historical pics of a Thompson gunner or a MP40 gunner using the sights to mshoot it. Both guns were usually fored from the hip in a point-shoot style of shooting. Many troops that used these guns got quite good at it. When you see the modern H&K subguns being used they almost ALWAYS use a stock and sights. Times and styles change
THANK YOU for the info about the 1 hex settings!!! That will help me a lot!!!

Dep

[pdoktar]

Well, as I said I know how 9x19, 7,62x39 and 7,62x54 acts, when fired full auto. I have no personal experience of .45ACP. However here is a good thread about WW2 SMGs and their uses in different armies, by guys who know or have fired those guns, maybe not in WW2 but later.

Presenting again our beloved tanknet: http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php...hinegun&st=120

And from personal experince I can guarantee that the Suomi SMG 9x19 was very easy to handle with 6-9 round automatic bursts and regularly landed on target with surprising accuracy, that can not be said from same distance with an AK or finnish M62 7,62x39 on similar full auto bursts.

Also consider this: if you drop one SMG range to 2hexes from three, there will be twenty guys complaining from different reasons that why this gun outranges the other, and have about million arguments why it actually should be the other way round. The developers would probably like to see to drop individual weapon designations and use only a generic SMG, rifle or self-loading rifle or carbine. However this will not happen, because there would be again ten oob makers saying that they want to present their Thompson, M16 or whatever for some reason (reality) to the game, so the individual weapon names will stand.

If you drop all SMGs to range 1hex, SMG-armed formations will suffer heavily. They will be gunned down from 2+ hex range by any regular rifle squad and will be mostly useless in this game system. My opinion comes from 5 years of gaming experience with SPWW2 / SPMBT system.

edited for spelling

[chuckfourth]

Hi pdoktar
For my experience I have fired the f1 which is prety much the sten and when you pull the trigger and the big fat bolt luches forward I can tell you when it hits the bullet the gun wants to jump out of your hands. The muzzle then proceeds to climb rapidly, there is hardly any point aiming. Training is to lean into the weapon yell and fire. In short its a dog, handy in a house no doubt.
Im sure most other SMGs perform much better.
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.
Im not sure if there are other SMG formations about but as for disadvantaging the tank riders dont forget they do have a tank to provide long range support.
While on the subject of tank riders I think it would be a good idea if the tank riders were in the same alpha group as the tanks like say panzergrenadiers, ie a1-a3 are tanks and a4-a6 are tank riders.
Also soviet formation unit 063 has a LMG which I believe tank riders didnt have. not sure if they came with anti tank mines of molotov cocktails either, these are antitank weapons and they do after all have a (several) tank(s) with them to take care of other tanks. I thought they were famous for being trained in and armed with just one weapon (ppsh). ie they are there to protect the tanks from infantry.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Marek_Tucan]

chuckfourth said:
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.

I recommend re-reading my post. Harrassing fire (in the case I mentioned, ie KP M/31) was for ranges up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at single opponents up to 300 meters (6 hexes). 100 meters was for controlled burst fire. While you cannot switch from one mode to another in SP engine, I'd say range of 150 meters (at cost of almost non-existant accuracy in-game) is quite justified.

[Deputy]

chuckfourth said:
Hi pdoktar
For my experience I have fired the f1 which is prety much the sten and when you pull the trigger and the big fat bolt luches forward I can tell you when it hits the bullet the gun wants to jump out of your hands. The muzzle then proceeds to climb rapidly, there is hardly any point aiming. Training is to lean into the weapon yell and fire. In short its a dog, handy in a house no doubt.
Im sure most other SMGs perform much better.
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.
Im not sure if there are other SMG formations about but as for disadvantaging the tank riders dont forget they do have a tank to provide long range support.
While on the subject of tank riders I think it would be a good idea if the tank riders were in the same alpha group as the tanks like say panzergrenadiers, ie a1-a3 are tanks and a4-a6 are tank riders.
Also soviet formation unit 063 has a LMG which I believe tank riders didnt have. not sure if they came with anti tank mines of molotov cocktails either, these are antitank weapons and they do after all have a (several) tank(s) with them to take care of other tanks. I thought they were famous for being trained in and armed with just one weapon (ppsh). ie they are there to protect the tanks from infantry.
Best Regards Chuck.

Chuck: Your experience with the Sten mirrors my experiece with the M1A1 Thompson. For close-in house-to-house fighting where targets are up close or may be densely packed, it's great. But othereise, it's like one man trying to accurately use a fire hose set to full power. The "leaning-into" style you describe is EXACTLY the right way to fire a subgun. As a matter of fact, when I fired the M1A1 at the range, I took that stance and the range instructor immediately commented "you must have fired this gun before". Of course, I had . Only I had fired the 1928A1 version. I will say they are great fun to shoot (as long as you aren't paying for the ammo). I also fired the M3 Grease Gun when I was with the 3rd Armored Cav in Ft. Lewis, Wa.
It was a bit lighter in weight than the Thompson, but still not something I'd call "accurate" by any stretch. I am going to try reducing the range to 2 and then 1 hex to see how this affects gameplay and realism.

Dep

[Deputy]

pdoktar said:
Well, as I said I know how 9x19, 7,62x39 and 7,62x54 acts, when fired full auto. I have no personal experience of .45ACP. However here is a good thread about WW2 SMGs and their uses in different armies, by guys who know or have fired those guns, maybe not in WW2 but later.

Presenting again our beloved tanknet: http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php...hinegun&st=120

And from personal experince I can guarantee that the Suomi SMG 9x19 was very easy to handle with 6-9 round automatic bursts and regularly landed on target with surprising accuracy, that can not be said from same distance with an AK or finnish M62 7,62x39 on similar full auto bursts.

Also consider this: if you drop one SMG range to 2hexes from three, there will be twenty guys complaining from different reasons that why this gun outranges the other, and have about million arguments why it actually should be the other way round. The developers would probably like to see to drop individual weapon designations and use only a generic SMG, rifle or self-loading rifle or carbine. However this will not happen, because there would be again ten oob makers saying that they want to present their Thompson, M16 or whatever for some reason (reality) to the game, so the individual weapon names will stand.

If you drop all SMGs to range 1hex, SMG-armed formations will suffer heavily. They will be gunned down from 2+ hex range by any regular rifle squad and will be mostly useless in this game system. My opinion comes from 5 years of gaming experience with SPWW2 / SPMBT system.

edited for spelling

Can't really compare a submachinegun cartridge (aka a PISTOL cartridge) performance with an assault rifle (7.62X39) or full size rifle (7.62X54R). An assault rifle mainly uses full auto fire for close combat where the targets are densely located and not under heavy cover. A full size battle rifle, say an FN/FAL, using a full power 7.62 NATO cartridge is USELESS in full auto. After the first shot the weapon rapidly climbs to where by the third shot you are shooting at birds.
On full auto an AK is range-restricted simply because of the increased recoil (due to increased power AND lethality) of the round. A 7.62X54R is a rifle or medium machinegun cartridge and has FAR more recoil. Yes, a 9MM in a heavy submachinegun is controllable. But you are NOT going to get "rifle-like" accuracy out of it. The barrel is way too short (usually around 10 inches) and the smaller length, even with a folding stock extended, simply doesn't lend itself to good accuracy potential. I would imagine a whole platoon armed with submachineguns and firing them like mortars is going to cause the enemy to immediately take cover. But if they are firing those submachineguns from a range so far away that they aren't coming close to the people they are shooting at, then they are in for some bad mojo in the form of artillery fire.

Will submachingun formations suffer if I drop it to one hex...most definitely. But that's a lot closer to reality than giving them long range killing power via some mortar-like firing of their weapons. I doubt very much any submachinegun users fired their weapons at long rifle ranges (over 100 meters) in real life anyway. Not unless they were suicidal and wanted to give their positions away. It's the same thing as having an M4 Sherman fire at it's maximum range at a Tiger tank and then expect it to survive the encounter when the Tiger can far outrange and outpower it. I am simply forcing the submachinegun units to be used as they were intended to be used in real life. If I am taking away some amazingly unrealistic abilities and advantages, then so be it. Those formations will just have to deal with it
I will use submachinegun units in urban or heavily forested combat where they won't be instantly visible. They will just have to use stealth to accomplish their mission instead of depending on an unrelistic advantage from their weapons.

If you REALLY want to know how the Thompson fires, I suggest you head over to the location where people who still own and shoot them post...

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forum...hp?showforum=3

Dep

[Marek_Tucan]

Deputy said:
High rate of fire in a subgun does NOT equate to more kill potential. Other factors like controllability come into effect.

As they do in-game.

"Spray and pray" may work in the movies and for gangbangers, but for military use it is frowned upon as wasting ammunition.

Worked quite well for Czechoslovakian SMG troops accompanying tanks in WW2. Not by causing a lot of damage but by forcing any Panzerfaust wielder in the trenches to keep their heads down at ranges where artillery was unable to supress enemy anymore due to danger zone issues. Of course they were helped by better ballistics of 7.62x24mm cartridge. And they were also helped by realisation that the three tanks they have for support is the entire force their assigned battalion was able to get together and if they let harm come to them, they would have no tanks coming to support them on the next day.

It is NOT taught even in machingune training. It has been repeatedly proven that aimed, rapid semi-auto fire is much more effective at actually killing people than full auto fire out of any handheld weapon.

If you are to employ aimed semiauto fire, you have to wait until the enemy sticks his head out of his trench (or from behind his pile of rubble), risking that he'll have time to send his ugly Panzerfaust into the tank you're supposed to protect. But sound of bursts of bullets splatting over his head might convince him it's not even worth looking out. As it is said, "It's not the bulled with your name on it you should be wary of, it's that with To whomever it may concern".

The subguns is deadly in CERTAIN instances. The Soviets made excellent use of them in house-to-house fighting and close assault combat.

SMG regiments weren't used just for close assaults and house-to-house - and it was quite often used tactic to use that 71-rounds disk magasine for suppressive barrages when closing on enemy, firing it empty and then in close-in fighting use handier 35-rounds mags.

But a sungun is NOT a "handy rifle". At ranges beyond 50 meters/yards, it's pretty useless. The 9mm as well as the .45ACp drops rather rapidly the further out it goes.

Finns evidently thought otherwise - doctrine for Suomi KP/31 was counting with harrassing fires up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at man-sized targets up to 300 meters (6 hexes) and burst fire generally under 100 meters (2 hexes). Of course KP/31 was a high-quality SMG, but the ammo was still 9mm Luger. In reality, close terrain on Karelian isthmus led to employment in the last role being most frequent but the longer-ranged action still took place in favorable conditions.
Bear in mind, it would be hard to simulate such distinction in-game, as there's no means how to "switch" the weapon from semi auto to full auto and from one range to another, so compromises have to be made, so Suomi gets the same kill and range (and accuracy) rating as most other SMG's.

They are PISTOL CARTRIDGES, not rifle cartridges. Again...lots of lead flying in the air is great for suppressive fire, but you need that lead to be ACCURATE to be effecive.

Granted the "5000 bullets to kill one man" statistics are correct (most likely it was lower as they are taking into account SUPPLIED rounds, not those actually fired), seems accuracy wasn't guarded so closely Not to mention similar statistics from Vietnam or WWII Pacific warfare.

The maximum range for the subguns in WinSPWW2 shouldn't be more than the hex they are located in.

IE 25 meters and less, since the troops aren't lined up on the far side of the hex? I was able to hit reliably man-sized target at that range with my fery first 9mm pistol magasine to fire at that range. True, the target wasn't shooting back.

Beyond that, they are just noisemakers.

As they are in game as well. The closer the weapon is to its max range, the more often does it "hit" as far as neighboring hexes go, ie complete total utter miss. Since in-game SMG's have generally range of 3, it happens quite often and saw it happen repeatedly even at 1 hex range. IF they do hit, they are devastating (and again, Primary inf. weapon class in SP means squad's worth of SMG's is firing to prosuce those 1-2 casaulties) but that's pretty big IF and it's hard to get to have such a chance unless the enemy infantry is suppressed well enough by other means. Like by other two SMG squads covering their advance by short bursts from a bit farther away.

The weapon that was actually USED for suppressive fire in WW2 was the Browning machinegun or the MG42.

As would be in-game, if for nothing else they have significantly longer range.

BTW...more Infantry were killed by artillery than ANY other weapon in WW2.

AFAIK those studies were based on hospital records, so are inherently biased by fact they don't take into account those poor buggers who didn't make it there. And anyway, many of these artillery casaulties would happen outside SP game scope - further in the rear, in preparationary fires before the battle, in random artillery duels before or after the battle, long-range interdiction fires far behind your back and so on. The game doesn't want to simulate all this, it is content to try to emulate combat that's actually happening on your few square kilometers.