OOBs way out of whack?

[Deputy]

pdoktar said:
In what war did you fire your two subguns? Considering they are the same Thompsons. I concur with you that a 2.36in bazooka should not be able nominally penetrate Tigers front armor. However many of us have military experience also and have fired enough different military weapons to be able to see that this game has point in it´s HE kill, accuracy, pen and range ratings. Submachine guns are able in real life to somewhat effectively fire for 150meters. However of course their power is truly appreciated below 100meter distances. I myself have fired the 9x19 Suomi SMG and it was much easier to control with short bursts than a 7,62x39 assault rifle when firing even shorter bursts.

Stop BOASTING with YOUR EXPERIENCE and start arguing then you´ll get your commments taken more seriously.

M1928A1 Thompson in Viet Nam. M1A1 at a gun range. And they are NOT identical. The 1928A1 has a much higher cyclic rate. I have no idea what "somewhat effectively" means. A subgun has crude sights at best. The Lyman sights that used to come on the 1928A1 were a bit of a joke. Expensive, delicate sights that were rarely if ever used in combat.
Achieveing multiple hits ona target with a sungun at 150 meters would be nothing short of spectacular. And multiple hits on a target are what a subgun NEEDS to be effective.
9MM and .45ACP FMJ rounds are not known for being outstanding manstoppers. The .45ACP is better, but only because of the larger hole it makes. I wasn't boasting my experience...it's a fact. And I put more stock in personal experience than numerical theories based on varying information from books. I do agree with Chuck that the Ian Hogg books are the most informative and useful. I wish folks who created this game consulted with some live survivors or at the least read some WW2 history books about weapon's abilities and intended uses before they plugged in the numbers that are in there right now. I hope SOMEBODY has reworked the OOB weapons files and the file is available for others to use. If not, I'll just keep changing the numbers until they eventually are more accurate and representative on real world numbers.

Dep

[thatguy96]

Deputy said:
M1928A1 Thompson in Viet Nam. M1A1 at a gun range. And they are NOT identical. The 1928A1 has a much higher cyclic rate.

I am curious as to the circumstances of your use of a M1928A1 in Southeast Asia.

[Deputy]

thatguy96 said:

I am curious as to the circumstances of your use of a M1928A1 in Southeast Asia.

I was there in 1968-1969, 2nd Btn, 60th Regt., 9th Infantry Division. We had various weapons assigned to locations in our forward base camp for use when we were there for bunker and tower guard duty. They included M14 rifles with automatic selector switches and the normal M60 and M2 HB machineguns. At the entrance/front gate to our camp we had two Thompson 1928A1 Subguns. At that time the M16 rifle was still suffering all kinds of problems with jamming, so it was thought the Thompson, which had proved to be quite reliable on full auto, would be better served at that location. I believe we bought them from a local ARVN unit that was still using WW2 era weapons. I was lucky enough to be selected to make sure they were in proper firing order so I got a goodly amount of range time. During the Tet offensive I spent one unpleasant evening up all night blasting away with the Tommygun. It never malfunctioned the whole time.

Dep

[narwan]

Deputy, you are consistently mistaken the ability to fire a SMG over distance with chance of hitting something. Despite plenty of indication both by actual users of these types of weapons and historical accounts of their use you keep to your own strict view.

Please understand that this game is a model of reality and not reality itself and as such has to incorporate many different aspects. One of these is that rounds fired by smg's can travel quite some distance and still do harm. Hitting the specific target you aimed at is something else entirely. The game gives smg's a range below the distance the rounds can travel and do harm, so it's already limiting them more than 'reality'. And at more than 1 hex range they are inaccurate in the game.
So if you want to be taken seriously here, do the work. Set up test scenario's and show us that smg's consistently do too much damage against targets at ranges of 100m or more. Make sure you include rifles and automatic rifles in your tests to show the relative effectiveness of smg's.

As a playtester for this game I've done plenty of those sorts of tests myself. And I must say, I recognize very little of what you claim is wrong with the game.

[Deputy]

narwan said:
Deputy, you are consistently mistaken the ability to fire a SMG over distance with chance of hitting something. Despite plenty of indication both by actual users of these types of weapons and historical accounts of their use you keep to your own strict view.

Please understand that this game is a model of reality and not reality itself and as such has to incorporate many different aspects. One of these is that rounds fired by smg's can travel quite some distance and still do harm. Hitting the specific target you aimed at is something else entirely. The game gives smg's a range below the distance the rounds can travel and do harm, so it's already limiting them more than 'reality'. And at more than 1 hex range they are inaccurate in the game.
So if you want to be taken seriously here, do the work. Set up test scenario's and show us that smg's consistently do too much damage against targets at ranges of 100m or more. Make sure you include rifles and automatic rifles in your tests to show the relative effectiveness of smg's.

As a playtester for this game I've done plenty of those sorts of tests myself. And I must say, I recognize very little of what you claim is wrong with the game.

Well all I can give is my actual, hands-on personal experience with the Thompson Submachinegun in a real world situation. If folks want to play a game based in Fantasy Island or with comic book realities, that is THEIR choice. I can understand folks who like to play as Soviet or Finnish troops, and the strong emphasis they place on their favorite weapons. But saying that a 9MM PISTOL cartridge or a 7.62X25 Soviet pistol cartridge can be fired at ranges of 500 meters effectively is just plain nonsense. Instead of relying on info that may be biased for whatever reason, why not just do an internet search of the M31, PPSh, Thompson, or Sten guns and see what the information is there. Look for maximim effective range. I think you will see, as I did, that it shows less than 200 meters. The info is available from numerous reliable sources online, and most all of them agree with each other. Forget about test scenarios, as they are already incorrect with the current settings that exist.

Dep

[Mobhack]

I think you will see, as I did, that it shows less than 200 meters.

3 hexes is 150 metres, which is less than 200 metres (4 hexes).

Time to end this circular argument, you have your views and can edit your OOB set to whatever you feel is correct, with the Mobhack editor, should you wish.

Cheers
Andy

[Deputy]

Mobhack said:

3 hexes is 150 metres, which is less than 200 metres (4 hexes).

Time to end this circular argument, you have your views and can edit your OOB set to whatever you feel is correct, with the Mobhack editor, should you wish.

Cheers
Andy

Roger that!!!

Dep...salutes and heads for the OOB Editing room