OOBs way out of whack?

[Deputy]

pdoktar said:

They are pistol cartridges that are fired with much longer barrels from SMGs than pistols, giving more velocity and basic accuracy. Sometimes SMG cartridges were made specially for submachineguns, with more powerful powder, because that gave even more mv compared to regular pistols. Also SMG sight arrangement, even only because of the longer distance of the aft and front sights make them inherently more accurate that any pistol. When you are thinking of a weapon where it should not have range past the same hex it is located in the game considers this range 0hex=0meters. So 1hex range is actually max range of 50meters, like hand grenades, infantry flamethrowers, pistols etc.

Sounds nice in theory, but simply not true. The barrel of the 1911A1 .45ACP pistol Uncle Sammie used was 5 inches long. It gave a velocity of 800fps. The barrel on the Thompson Submachinegun was 10 inches long. It's velocity was around 920fps. Not enough to make a significant difference in bullet performance. Not even enough to make the bullet go supersonic. And that velocity dropped off VERY RAPIDLY the further away from the muzzle that heavy (230 grain) non-aerodynamic cartridge went. I know of special steel-cased .45ACP ammo used by Uncle Sam. But that was used in ALL .45ACP cartridges because brass was in short supply. It didn't travel any faster than normal brass ammo. There a limit to how much "oomph" you can boost a cartridge case to before you start destroying parts or getting ruptured case heads. Accuracy and subguns simply aren't compatible in WW2 designs. The MP40 used a crude non-adjustable V notch and blade front sight. The Lyman sight that came on the early Thompsons was dropped in favor of a crude plate with a peep hole and a blade front sight. It was cheaper to produce and just as effective as the Lyman sight. If you've never fired a full automatic weapon, it's hard to convey the way it jumps around in your hand. The l;ast version of the Thompson was the M1A1. It fired from an open bolt, much the same as the MP40. The weight os that massive bolt slamming forward every time it fired pretty much made sights more cosmetic than functional. It's pretty difficult to find historical pics of a Thompson gunner or a MP40 gunner using the sights to mshoot it. Both guns were usually fored from the hip in a point-shoot style of shooting. Many troops that used these guns got quite good at it. When you see the modern H&K subguns being used they almost ALWAYS use a stock and sights. Times and styles change
THANK YOU for the info about the 1 hex settings!!! That will help me a lot!!!

Dep

[pdoktar]

Well, as I said I know how 9x19, 7,62x39 and 7,62x54 acts, when fired full auto. I have no personal experience of .45ACP. However here is a good thread about WW2 SMGs and their uses in different armies, by guys who know or have fired those guns, maybe not in WW2 but later.

Presenting again our beloved tanknet: http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php...hinegun&st=120

And from personal experince I can guarantee that the Suomi SMG 9x19 was very easy to handle with 6-9 round automatic bursts and regularly landed on target with surprising accuracy, that can not be said from same distance with an AK or finnish M62 7,62x39 on similar full auto bursts.

Also consider this: if you drop one SMG range to 2hexes from three, there will be twenty guys complaining from different reasons that why this gun outranges the other, and have about million arguments why it actually should be the other way round. The developers would probably like to see to drop individual weapon designations and use only a generic SMG, rifle or self-loading rifle or carbine. However this will not happen, because there would be again ten oob makers saying that they want to present their Thompson, M16 or whatever for some reason (reality) to the game, so the individual weapon names will stand.

If you drop all SMGs to range 1hex, SMG-armed formations will suffer heavily. They will be gunned down from 2+ hex range by any regular rifle squad and will be mostly useless in this game system. My opinion comes from 5 years of gaming experience with SPWW2 / SPMBT system.

edited for spelling

[chuckfourth]

Hi pdoktar
For my experience I have fired the f1 which is prety much the sten and when you pull the trigger and the big fat bolt luches forward I can tell you when it hits the bullet the gun wants to jump out of your hands. The muzzle then proceeds to climb rapidly, there is hardly any point aiming. Training is to lean into the weapon yell and fire. In short its a dog, handy in a house no doubt.
Im sure most other SMGs perform much better.
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.
Im not sure if there are other SMG formations about but as for disadvantaging the tank riders dont forget they do have a tank to provide long range support.
While on the subject of tank riders I think it would be a good idea if the tank riders were in the same alpha group as the tanks like say panzergrenadiers, ie a1-a3 are tanks and a4-a6 are tank riders.
Also soviet formation unit 063 has a LMG which I believe tank riders didnt have. not sure if they came with anti tank mines of molotov cocktails either, these are antitank weapons and they do after all have a (several) tank(s) with them to take care of other tanks. I thought they were famous for being trained in and armed with just one weapon (ppsh). ie they are there to protect the tanks from infantry.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Marek_Tucan]

chuckfourth said:
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.

I recommend re-reading my post. Harrassing fire (in the case I mentioned, ie KP M/31) was for ranges up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at single opponents up to 300 meters (6 hexes). 100 meters was for controlled burst fire. While you cannot switch from one mode to another in SP engine, I'd say range of 150 meters (at cost of almost non-existant accuracy in-game) is quite justified.

[chuckfourth]

Quite justified for all SMG's?

[Marek_Tucan]

chuckfourth said:
Quite justified for all SMG's?

Quite justifiable for all I'd say, even Sten Gun with sawn off barrel and sights would be able to put out suppressive fire up to 150 meters. At nil accuracy, of course, but the same would happen in-game.
And again, judging from the war memoirs I have read, esp. from zones where SMG's were used more than in US Army, it seems just this was quite frequent mode of use when the goal was to keep "their" heads down at ranges where artillery was already a no-no.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Marek
So if every other weapon in the game uses its effective range why should we make an exception of the SMG and let it have extra 'suppressive' range. Effective range for a SMG firing bursts being 2 hexes or less.
Not that Ive read the same texts as you but Ive never come accross this long range use of SMG suppressive shooting. Seems a great way to get in close with the enemy and have no bullets left once you get there, obviosly some quotes or references would be helpful.
Beat Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPS-43
pps-43
which states the sight settings were 100 and 200 yards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun
M3
Which states the sights were fixed at 100 yards (so harrasing fire at 150 would be fine)

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/PSharpe1.html Thompson

which is a good technical article on the Thompson

The accuracy of the sub-machine gun is decidedly interesting. File records of the Auto-Ordnance firm indicate that in a Mann rest test fired at Hartford, Conn., May 2, 1921, the mean radius using a Remington Standard 230 grain bullet at 100 yards ran 1.89 inches. At 200 yards mean radius was 4.92 inches; at 300 yards 7.63 inches at 400 yards it increased to 18.31; while at 500 yards it jumped to 20.45 inches. Accordingly, one can assume that the accuracy of the more or less spent bullets is quite uncontrolled at the longer ranges. This writer suggests that the effective range of the weapon is under 300 yards.

At 200 yards,, using the gun from the sitting position, I experienced no difficulty in placing deliberate fire in "killing" portions of the standard Colt Police Pistol "silhouette" target. It is safe to state that an officer could readily "get his man" at that range. which is well out of normal revolver range.

And I have fired the Sterling on the ranges, and was quite happy with it at 75-100 yards, at 150-200 yards it would be fine to keep heads down. I would still rather have the SLR, avoid the GPMG (heavy! + a beast to clean!), but did a spell as platoon radio operator, and having to hump that beach, was quite happy to have the stubby little subby - as it was nice and small (esp with the stock folded up) and light.

So, 150 yards or so is fine for SMGs in the game, especially since we have to realise that the infantry can be assumed to be anywhere in their hex, or to move to the area in question in the game turn if needed, so allowing grenades & satchel charges to be delivered to the next hex, ant-tank assaults and so on. The men in a section are not formed up in a close-order drill formation shoulder to shoulder at the centre point of the hex (even if the icon looks crowded at the figure/ground scale) - but are assumed to be tactically positioned throughout the area.

(And the original game did not allow you to actually enter a hex containing enemy, remember! - melee code is our addition, way back in sp2ww2 days).

Oh - and the code (not original SSI code, so I can mention details of that! ! ) gives SMG a small accuracy boost at 1-2 hexes over other WT_PRIME_INF weapon classes (Firer is an SMG is determined by weapon type==WT_PRIME_INF and hekill>2 and weapon range<5. if i were actually to write a new game from the ground up, I would have WC_SMG, WC_RIFLE and so on .. would make determining exactly what the truck was shooting much easier in the code than a single WT_PRIME_INF class etc).

SMG sections - I use them in my USSR campaign core, but as a back-up to the normal rifle companies, as tank riders and only as the lead in city fights, woods, etc. If you can keep the fight under 4 hexes, they are fine, but even with the LMG, if caught in the open by rifle enemy at >SMG range(not hard), they do not fare too well. Therefore, I usually upgrade one of the 3 sections in each platoon to a rifle (or LMG) section after 1-2 battles, to give some ranged fire to the platoon.

Cheers
Andy

[Deputy]

Marek_Tucan said:

I recommend re-reading my post. Harrassing fire (in the case I mentioned, ie KP M/31) was for ranges up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at single opponents up to 300 meters (6 hexes). 100 meters was for controlled burst fire. While you cannot switch from one mode to another in SP engine, I'd say range of 150 meters (at cost of almost non-existant accuracy in-game) is quite justified.

I did some reading on the M31 after you mentioned it. Very impressive!!! However, I think harassing fire out to 500 meters is being WAY too generous. Other than keeping the enemy awake at night (until he calls in artillery on your heads) and giving away your position, there is NO WAY the 9MM cartridge is going to shoot that far and hit anything. From what I have been able to find out, the maximum EFFECTIVE RANGE of the M31 is less than 200 meters. Personally, I think that is being VERY generous, considering the capabilities of the 9MM FMJ ammunition and the cyclic rate of the blowback-operated gun (750-900RPM).

Dep

[Deputy]

chuckfourth said:
Hi pdoktar
For my experience I have fired the f1 which is prety much the sten and when you pull the trigger and the big fat bolt luches forward I can tell you when it hits the bullet the gun wants to jump out of your hands. The muzzle then proceeds to climb rapidly, there is hardly any point aiming. Training is to lean into the weapon yell and fire. In short its a dog, handy in a house no doubt.
Im sure most other SMGs perform much better.
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.
Im not sure if there are other SMG formations about but as for disadvantaging the tank riders dont forget they do have a tank to provide long range support.
While on the subject of tank riders I think it would be a good idea if the tank riders were in the same alpha group as the tanks like say panzergrenadiers, ie a1-a3 are tanks and a4-a6 are tank riders.
Also soviet formation unit 063 has a LMG which I believe tank riders didnt have. not sure if they came with anti tank mines of molotov cocktails either, these are antitank weapons and they do after all have a (several) tank(s) with them to take care of other tanks. I thought they were famous for being trained in and armed with just one weapon (ppsh). ie they are there to protect the tanks from infantry.
Best Regards Chuck.

Chuck: Your experience with the Sten mirrors my experiece with the M1A1 Thompson. For close-in house-to-house fighting where targets are up close or may be densely packed, it's great. But othereise, it's like one man trying to accurately use a fire hose set to full power. The "leaning-into" style you describe is EXACTLY the right way to fire a subgun. As a matter of fact, when I fired the M1A1 at the range, I took that stance and the range instructor immediately commented "you must have fired this gun before". Of course, I had . Only I had fired the 1928A1 version. I will say they are great fun to shoot (as long as you aren't paying for the ammo). I also fired the M3 Grease Gun when I was with the 3rd Armored Cav in Ft. Lewis, Wa.
It was a bit lighter in weight than the Thompson, but still not something I'd call "accurate" by any stretch. I am going to try reducing the range to 2 and then 1 hex to see how this affects gameplay and realism.

Dep