OOBs way out of whack?

[Marek_Tucan]

chuckfourth said:
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.

I recommend re-reading my post. Harrassing fire (in the case I mentioned, ie KP M/31) was for ranges up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at single opponents up to 300 meters (6 hexes). 100 meters was for controlled burst fire. While you cannot switch from one mode to another in SP engine, I'd say range of 150 meters (at cost of almost non-existant accuracy in-game) is quite justified.

[chuckfourth]

Quite justified for all SMG's?

[Marek_Tucan]

chuckfourth said:
Quite justified for all SMG's?

Quite justifiable for all I'd say, even Sten Gun with sawn off barrel and sights would be able to put out suppressive fire up to 150 meters. At nil accuracy, of course, but the same would happen in-game.
And again, judging from the war memoirs I have read, esp. from zones where SMG's were used more than in US Army, it seems just this was quite frequent mode of use when the goal was to keep "their" heads down at ranges where artillery was already a no-no.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Marek
So if every other weapon in the game uses its effective range why should we make an exception of the SMG and let it have extra 'suppressive' range. Effective range for a SMG firing bursts being 2 hexes or less.
Not that Ive read the same texts as you but Ive never come accross this long range use of SMG suppressive shooting. Seems a great way to get in close with the enemy and have no bullets left once you get there, obviosly some quotes or references would be helpful.
Beat Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPS-43
pps-43
which states the sight settings were 100 and 200 yards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun
M3
Which states the sights were fixed at 100 yards (so harrasing fire at 150 would be fine)

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/PSharpe1.html Thompson

which is a good technical article on the Thompson

The accuracy of the sub-machine gun is decidedly interesting. File records of the Auto-Ordnance firm indicate that in a Mann rest test fired at Hartford, Conn., May 2, 1921, the mean radius using a Remington Standard 230 grain bullet at 100 yards ran 1.89 inches. At 200 yards mean radius was 4.92 inches; at 300 yards 7.63 inches at 400 yards it increased to 18.31; while at 500 yards it jumped to 20.45 inches. Accordingly, one can assume that the accuracy of the more or less spent bullets is quite uncontrolled at the longer ranges. This writer suggests that the effective range of the weapon is under 300 yards.

At 200 yards,, using the gun from the sitting position, I experienced no difficulty in placing deliberate fire in "killing" portions of the standard Colt Police Pistol "silhouette" target. It is safe to state that an officer could readily "get his man" at that range. which is well out of normal revolver range.

And I have fired the Sterling on the ranges, and was quite happy with it at 75-100 yards, at 150-200 yards it would be fine to keep heads down. I would still rather have the SLR, avoid the GPMG (heavy! + a beast to clean!), but did a spell as platoon radio operator, and having to hump that beach, was quite happy to have the stubby little subby - as it was nice and small (esp with the stock folded up) and light.

So, 150 yards or so is fine for SMGs in the game, especially since we have to realise that the infantry can be assumed to be anywhere in their hex, or to move to the area in question in the game turn if needed, so allowing grenades & satchel charges to be delivered to the next hex, ant-tank assaults and so on. The men in a section are not formed up in a close-order drill formation shoulder to shoulder at the centre point of the hex (even if the icon looks crowded at the figure/ground scale) - but are assumed to be tactically positioned throughout the area.

(And the original game did not allow you to actually enter a hex containing enemy, remember! - melee code is our addition, way back in sp2ww2 days).

Oh - and the code (not original SSI code, so I can mention details of that! ! ) gives SMG a small accuracy boost at 1-2 hexes over other WT_PRIME_INF weapon classes (Firer is an SMG is determined by weapon type==WT_PRIME_INF and hekill>2 and weapon range<5. if i were actually to write a new game from the ground up, I would have WC_SMG, WC_RIFLE and so on .. would make determining exactly what the truck was shooting much easier in the code than a single WT_PRIME_INF class etc).

SMG sections - I use them in my USSR campaign core, but as a back-up to the normal rifle companies, as tank riders and only as the lead in city fights, woods, etc. If you can keep the fight under 4 hexes, they are fine, but even with the LMG, if caught in the open by rifle enemy at >SMG range(not hard), they do not fare too well. Therefore, I usually upgrade one of the 3 sections in each platoon to a rifle (or LMG) section after 1-2 battles, to give some ranged fire to the platoon.

Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack
Very interesting but can you show me where tank desent teams armed with LMGs come from? Ive yet to find a tank desent TOE that has anything else than ppsh.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Marek_Tucan]

I'd say all tank dessant TOEs present are inherently inaccurate as tank dessant units were formed ad hoc, though preferably with SMG infantry. Now SMG squads were atleast supposed to have LMG, and I doubt very much they'd leave it behind. After all they had to count with situations where tank ios killed or otherwise away.

[Mobhack]

If that is your world view of tank riders, then limit yourself to the versions with SMG only, then. Your choice.

Of course, the Russians were just like any other army - and experienced troops would "aquire" non-establishment weapons, like the mass use of captured panzerfausts.

Since I have actually served in an army unit, I place very little value on any "official" TO&E chart. However, some "chartered accountant" type wargamers bow down and worship at the altar of the TO&E chart. Hint - the things are a guide to what some bureaucrats thought should apply, and not to the reality of actual units, especially those in combat.

Now, of course, you could always enter "soviet tank rider LMG" into the well-known search engine called "google" and get results like Kursk
where an SMG company is shown to have 9 LMG, which is 3 per platoon, and with 3 sections that is 1 per section. Which is, funnily enough - what we provide as one of the alternatives.

You have the Mobhack editor, so you can make your own OOBS to fit your particular views, should you feel the need. If you do not like the sections with LMG, do not buy them, and if you are obsessed by a Soviet AI using them against you and swinging the entire battle because 10 elements of 200 or so have these wonder-waffen, then by all means, use Mobhack (its not hard) - and give them an X3 code. Mobhack allows you to have it your way.

Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack.
Its not my world view its how these units were organised
have a look at
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/012_...brig-tank.html
it shows one SMG coy, 2 rifle coys.
here it is again in text from
http://theeasternfront.co.uk/Infantr...rydivision.htm
"Of the three rifle Companies, one was a submachine gun Company which rode with the tanks and two were lorry borne rifle Companies." ie from my first reference and from your reference we can see that all the LMGs are in the two lorry bourne coys.
and
"The submachine gun Company was comprised of a Company HQ and three rifle Platoons, each formed from a Platoon HQ and three 8-man squads, all riflemen being equipped with the PPsh-41 sub machine gun. From 1943 onwards, the number of men in the rifle squad was increased to ten."
From
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/..._battalion.htm
"There is no debate over their -SMG coy- transport. They were the Desant troops; they rode on the tanks.
Every man in the -SMG- Company carried the PPsh 41 SMG, there being no room for other support weapons;."
ie no room for weapons like LMGs antitank mines molotovs etc.

So we see that the tank desent squads are not the same thing as the SMG squads you mention. The SMG squads (with LMGs) travel in Lorries. The tank desant troops or tank rider coy (SMG only) travel on the tanks.
The two rifle coys operate just like the German truck bourne grenadiers ie independantly if need be. The tank desant troopps are different, they are tied directly to the tanks.

So in your OOB you have grouped both the lorrybourne rifle coy and the tank desant coy squads under the "tank desent coy". The Tank desant coy should actually have only one option, a squad of only SMGs. the other squads belong in your "Motor rifle coy" formation. The current SMG/LMG tank desant squad needs to be moved into the Motor rifle coy as a selection in the "infantry" section, post 43.
As for 'aquiring' LMGs a whole coy doesnt just suddenly aquire a LMG per squad, soemone has to find ammo for all these weapons and spare parts/barrels mags etc etc etc.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Deputy]

Marek_Tucan said:

I recommend re-reading my post. Harrassing fire (in the case I mentioned, ie KP M/31) was for ranges up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at single opponents up to 300 meters (6 hexes). 100 meters was for controlled burst fire. While you cannot switch from one mode to another in SP engine, I'd say range of 150 meters (at cost of almost non-existant accuracy in-game) is quite justified.

I did some reading on the M31 after you mentioned it. Very impressive!!! However, I think harassing fire out to 500 meters is being WAY too generous. Other than keeping the enemy awake at night (until he calls in artillery on your heads) and giving away your position, there is NO WAY the 9MM cartridge is going to shoot that far and hit anything. From what I have been able to find out, the maximum EFFECTIVE RANGE of the M31 is less than 200 meters. Personally, I think that is being VERY generous, considering the capabilities of the 9MM FMJ ammunition and the cyclic rate of the blowback-operated gun (750-900RPM).

Dep