Fairey swordfish

[PatG]

Find a book called "17 Seconds" in part it's about defusing German sea mines dropped over England as conventional light case bombs. I cannot speak to if the Swordfish did so but using sea mines as bombs was an established German tactic not a flight of fantasy as my parents can attest to having been on the receiving end.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
I am not saying that the use of mines as bombs is a flight of fancy I am saying that the use of the British A Mark I mine as a bomb is a flight of fancy.
It cant work as a bomb for the reasons detailed above and any use of it as a cookie or any other type of biscuit is beyond the modeling abilities of the game. What scares me is that their is no concern over the fact that this creates a fighter bomber that will be used in PBEM that has way too large a bomb. One really wonders.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Sorry Chuck but that is not what your post said.

So we can see that using this mine as a bomb presents us with a problem, it doesnt have a contact trigger, so its not going to go off until a ship goes past.
Now you and I know that using such a mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy but what about the rest of your gaming community?

(emphasis added)
As I remember air dropped mines are parachuted in so they don't disintegrate when they hit the water's surface from altitude. Once they land, the anti-lift trigger arms (in the German case it is in part a 17 second timer). If the mine is at a depth less than that set in the anti-lift trigger at the prescribed time after impact, the mine detonates. No contact fuse required on a land drop because the mine will never sink below sea level.
So it is entirely feasible that the Swordfish could use such a mine as a bomb - again I do not claim one ever did.
I respect your concern that a player might use the mine armed Swordfish but I give it no more weight than the player who might field a battalion of Brandenburgers, or 20 Sturmtigers or any number of Maus. There are no Olympic medals given out for playing SP nor are there any cash prizes for playing PBEM so if your opponent sends over flights of mine-carrying Swordfish, either politely ask him to historically justify his purchase or suck it up knowing you can have the points equivalent in fantasy German kit on your side of the board.

[chuckfourth]

Hi pat
Ok maybe I should have said
'a mine, such as the A MARK I, as a bomb, represents a flight of pure fantasy '
or
'this mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy'
instead of
'a mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy'
the first sentence is the meaning I intended.
1500 lb and 750 lb bomb carrying swordfish remain a fantasy. You or anyone else, have yet to show that the mine can be, or ever was, used as a bomb, the "A MARK I" not some german mine.
People will use it, if your looking for a big bomb in your fighter bombers youll pick this one, its the biggest and clearly shouldnt be there.
If you buy Maus everyone knows its a what if If you buy either of these swordfish you think you have a valid piece of kit.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Chuck:
It would be unfair to ask you to prove a negative. However since the Swordfish was a production aircraft that could carry a production 1500lb mine and dropping mines on land targets was a generally know tactic (regardless of the nation doing it), it is possible that in some operation somewhere during the war that a Swordfish dropped a mine as a ground attack weapon. In fact far more likely than the Maus seeing combat service. So yes I would call it a valid piece of kit, far more valid than some partial prototype super-tank.

Everyone else:
Sorry for feeding the troll.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
Well i dont accept that dropping mines on land was a generally accepted tactic, some quotes or references please.
Also i am not saying the Maus is a valid piece of kit I am saying that you know it is a "fantasy" equipment ie a "what if". the swordfish sneaks in as valid kit but is a fantasy. On your assumption that maybe it happened all sorts of other monstrosities can be included in the game. Maybe DORA shot point blank at tanks? its possible isnt it?
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Fortress Malta, James Holland. ISBN 140135186-7
page 112, Referring to the lack of effect of conventional and incendiary bombs on the architecture of Malta.

"Ordinary bombs caused little destruction: they would knock down buildings if there was a direct hit, but the blast effect was usually comparatively small. Now, however, the Germans had begun using parachute mines, which had a far greater blast power, and were consequently considerably more destructive."

from http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Onli...Theblitz4.html

"14th November 1940 - Code named Moonlilight Sonata German bombers turned their attention on Coventry decimating the city and dropping 150,000 fire bombs and 503 tons of high explosives, as well as 130 parachute mines."

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-mine#Air_mines

Air mines

During The Blitz the Germans used naval mines dropped on parachutes as improvised blockbusters. They exploded on contact with a hard surface, as the bomb was not in a crater, the blast could go sideways causing a great deal of damage.The large raid on Coventry on November 14/November 15, 1940 included the use of 50 parachute naval mines which caused extensive blast damage. The British called these devices air-mines. These types where used also during air raids on Malta especially on its harbour areas.

emphasis added

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a2065402.shtml

Land or Aerial mines. These were enormous steel canisters 9.1/2 ft. long containing 2,400 lb high explosive, they were dropped by a very large parachute so generally arrived silently some time after the bombers had gone, usually when the fire and rescue workers had arrived. The blast from these devices was devastating, destroying hundreds of homes for hundreds of yards and maiming or killing anyone in the area. The Germans dropped many parachute or land mines which would hang caught up in trees for days before exploding their massive charges, they were deliberately intended to inflict terror and slaughter civilians in large numbers.

from http://www.candi.ac.uk/about/news/2005/141105blitz.asp

Sixty-five years ago on 15 October 1940, a parachute high explosive bomb - a land mine - hit Dame Alice Owen's School. The school housed a basement air raid shelter and 109 of the 143 local people who were settling down for the night were killed.

If that's not enough, I can call up my Dad and get a quote about the one that blew up the block one over from his during the blitz. My Maltese in-laws might have some eye witness accounts too.

[DRG]

OH please !...... "What scares me" ??? You REALLY need to get a life Chuck. Find other interests, expand your horizons beyond worrying about virtually irrelevant micro details in a war game.

The overall bomb load weight that aircraft carried is correct at 1500 pounds, it's the combination of bombs that is MILDLY questionable. So all this whining and *****ing and hand wringing is whether it drops one 1500 pound bomb ( in the form of a "mine".... SO SORRY the guy who put this in years ago was being a bit too "creative" for you Chucky ) or two 750 pound bombs as opposed to the "actual" load of three 500 pounders or one 500 pounder and four 250 pound bombs as detailed in the link Andy provided. It is beyond ridiculous to even THINK having this aircraft loaded this way is grounds to "scare" anyone but WORRY NO MORE...... NO LONGER will you have to live in fear of flights of Swordfish blasting your poor defenceless Germans or Italians or Japanese to smithereens with their secret wonder weapon ( so effective that entire battles will swing on the possession of the device! ) The load has been changed, was changed in fact a couple of days ago and the overall effect on game play for 99.9999 % of the people playing will be next to nil.

Don

[EJ]

Man,

I didn't know people debate SO seriously about details in a war strategy game. Sounds like somebody rdy for a UFC fight! LOL