OOBs way out of whack?

[pdoktar]

Oh please do not modify the stats of Kar98K. All bolt-action rifles of given calibre (or close ballistic performance) have the same acc and range and HE kill, because there are not any huge differences in them, one being much better than other. I understand that you can up the MG42 a bit, since it clearly was the best machinegun there was, but rifle differences as a whole are somewhat redundant in the scope of the game.

[Marek_Tucan]

Kar98 too weak? In the test scen with min/max preferences a single squad's burst of Kar98's wiped out 6 men of the target squad. Good enough for me.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Podoktar
I think the effective ranges of the various rifles do vary a bit, giving them all 10 is OK and I know no one is going to be bothered looking into it and its not worth the bother etc but they arnt all 500m. For example most sites quote the Garands effective range at 400m or 450m rather than the current 500m.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Deputy]

pdoktar said:
Oh please do not modify the stats of Kar98K. All bolt-action rifles of given calibre (or close ballistic performance) have the same acc and range and HE kill, because there are not any huge differences in them, one being much better than other. I understand that you can up the MG42 a bit, since it clearly was the best machinegun there was, but rifle differences as a whole are somewhat redundant in the scope of the game.

Let me give my reasons for upping the 98K to the same levels as the Garand....

#1 First of all, the .30/06 caliber cartridge of the Garand and the 8MM cartridge of the 98K have VERY similar ballistic numbers. So one cartridge is not superior to the other at the ranges thay are used at. Both kill at equal effectiveness.

#2. While the Garand does have more ammunition capacity 8 rounds compared to 5, there is a tendency among shooters to fire those rounds off without taking good aim at their targets. The user of the 98K tends to make the most out of HITTING his target, since he has fewer rounds and it is slower to shoot those rounds. Plus a skilled 98K shooter CAN fire off those rounds quickly and accurately. Consider Lee Harvey Oswald shooting Kennedy. He fired at a MOVING target in a vehicle where all he could see of the target was the head to the shoulders. Yet he managed to operate a beat up old Italian Mannlicher-Carcano bolt action rifle and hit Kennedy with 3 shots.

#3 The Mauser action is probably the strongest, most effective bolt action system of any bolt action rifle. It is still being used today by many countries as the basis for their sniper rifles.

#4 All bolt action rifles are not the same just like all machineguns or semi-auto rifles are not the same. That's just the way it is. The British Enfield rifle has a much "faster" action (it cocks on CLOSING the bolt) and holds 10 shots. I think that rifle is under-rated in the game too.

Dep

[Marek_Tucan]

Deputy said:
#1 First of all, the .30/06 caliber cartridge of the Garand and the 8MM cartridge of the 98K have VERY similar ballistic numbers. So one cartridge is not superior to the other at the ranges thay are used at. Both kill at equal effectiveness.

Difference in stats between weapons doesn't depend just on caliber and round used.

#2. While the Garand does have more ammunition capacity 8 rounds compared to 5, there is a tendency among shooters to fire those rounds off without taking good aim at their targets. The user of the 98K tends to make the most out of HITTING his target, since he has fewer rounds and it is slower to shoot those rounds.

This opinion was being held by militaries when breech loaders came instead of muzzleloaders. Proven false (actually it was true breech loader toting soldiers fired more rapidly, but also with more time being devoted to aiming instead of loading). Then when repeater rifles came instead of single-shot breech loaders. Proven false. Then when self-loading rifles came. Proven false. Then when autofire-capable rifles came. Proven false.
In fact, Garand compared to Kar (or any other repeater) allows for significantly quicker re-engaging of target as you don't have to put the weapon off balance by moving hand back and operating the mechanism.
Anyway, curious why Germans or Soviets took the efforts to field SLR and later AR if it was all the same.

Plus a skilled 98K shooter CAN fire off those rounds quickly and accurately.

Did you notice that with rising experience in the game, the troops are a) more likely to hit and b) able to fire off more salvoes per turn? But if anything, this would speak contrary to upping kar as, as you wrote, skilled shooter can pull it off. However your regular conscripts most likely not, whereas they are able to get higher ROF from a SLR.

Consider Lee Harvey Oswald shooting Kennedy. He fired at a MOVING target in a vehicle where all he could see of the target was the head to the shoulders. Yet he managed to operate a beat up old Italian Mannlicher-Carcano bolt action rifle and hit Kennedy with 3 shots.

So... I assume Carcano should get kill of 2 as well? By the way also notice LHO was hardly your regular shooter. Also his target was pretty close and not too fast.

#3 The Mauser action is probably the strongest, most effective bolt action system of any bolt action rifle. It is still being used today by many countries as the basis for their sniper rifles.

As is Enfield. Enfield system was also found to be quicker than Mauser, with skilled shooter able to reach (in practice firing, all with reloading) 40 shots per minute. Aimed, that is. This is comparable with what is being considered to be regular RoF for SLR. However, the problem is... That is skilled soldier. In-game, you can use formation with experience bonus. However expecting such a feat from your ordinary Tommy Atkins (or Hans Otto) is reaching.

#4 All bolt action rifles are not the same just like all machineguns or semi-auto rifles are not the same. That's just the way it is. The British Enfield rifle has a much "faster" action (it cocks on CLOSING the bolt) and holds 10 shots. I think that rifle is under-rated in the game too.

Are the differences big enough to earn some bolt actions 200% HE kill over others? And bear in mind that the "primary weapon" is in-game treated like being fired by the entire squad. With 10 riflemen, you have a difference of "total" HE kill of 10 vs. total HEK of 20. Talk about overrated units...
If you mind so much the edge of SLR's (deserved IMO, but OK, that's the matter of discussion), more sensible would be to bring the SLR's down to bolt action level, IE give them HEK of 1 and simulate their edge over bolt actions say by higher accuracy.

[Deputy]

Marek_Tucan said:

If you mind so much the edge of SLR's (deserved IMO, but OK, that's the matter of discussion), more sensible would be to bring the SLR's down to bolt action level, IE give them HEK of 1 and simulate their edge over bolt actions say by higher accuracy.

I may just try that.