US Sniper rifle???

[Deputy]

thatguy96 said:

The sniper rifle data is not meaningless. Its that small variations have such a negligible effect on the game that having anything other than a generic "sniper rifle" is more about name flavor than about stats. You could create every small arm you can think of and incorporate it in game, but the differences would be so small that it simply would not be worth it in the end. Furthermore, if you tried to make them all different you'd probably quickly find that it makes some inaccurately powerful because there isn't enough room to maneuver at this scale in the stats. Furthermore, remember that the training and relative skill of the marksman is not included in the stats for the sniper unit entirely, but in the stats for the weapon, and that the acc figures are as much a comment on the sniper's personal ability as the weapon's base accuracy.

Furthermore, do you have information that suggests that since there was no specific rifle that there were no snipers or marksman? I just don't know, but I think that would be much more of a case to modify the dates at which snipers can be bought than the existence of a type of rifle that it has already been suggested has little to no bearing on any specific type.

Again,if you are only interested in manuvering around huge formations of tanks and troops, snipers aren't all that relevant. Snipers didn't enter into the picture in any quantity for the US until AFTER D-Day. As far as I can tell, pretty much every flavor of small arm HAS been included in the game. Although there are still some missing. Truck drivers and tank crews WERE armed with small arms like M3 Greaseguns and Carbines, not just a 1911A1 and a grenade. Heck, I doubt most truck drivers and tank crews HAD grenades with them unless they begged some from an Infantryman.

Were there "snipers" without sniper rifles? I would say NO. Snipers can fire out to ranges far greater than an ordinary rifleman. But they do that becasue of their rifle. Were there "marksman". Yes, most definitey. But being accurate with a rifle still doesn't make you a "sniper".

Here's my bottom line...the sniper rifles and snipers of Germany and Russia were probably the best in WW2. And the sim should represent that. Saying all sniper rifles and snipers are "equal" is like saying a Sherman tank is equal to a Tiger tank is equal to a T-34 is equal to a Churchill. Will snipers matter for those playing huge tank battles or human wave attacks? Of course not. But everyone DOESN'T play that type of battle in WinSPWW2.
If the sniper is that meaningless, just delete him and move on. Otherwise, let's try and get the OOB to at least reflect SOME kind of historical accuracy. You wouldn't want a Tiger tank to pop up in 1939 would you???

Dep

[DRG]

Dep, you're a troll and I'm calling you on that. You twist every perceived "error" to prove your point but the argument is totally bogus. We stated right from the beginning that "in this game a "sniper rifle" is the same no matter who's using it" I said you could think of it by any name you like . You twisted that into some kind of damning evidence that we are providing "a sniper rifle available months or even years before they were even produced " when in fact snipers and "sniper rifles" have been used by the US Army and USMC in every war it participated in in the 20th century. During WW1 the USMC used the Springfield 1903 with 5x Lyman and Winchester A5 scopes. During WW2 and later they mostly used Springfield 1903A1 rifles with the 8x Unertl scope and Springfield 1903A4 with the same scopes than the US Army (M73B1) and in WW1 and the interwar years the US Army used the Springfield 1903 as well so there's your "sniper rifle". It doesn't matter one iota if snipers did or didn't "enter into the picture in any quantity for the US until AFTER D-Day" The point is they DID exist and are in the OOB.

Even suggesting that the decision to make all sniper rifles equal is the same as "saying a Sherman tank is equal to a Tiger tank is equal to a T-34 is equal to a Churchill" is complete and utter bull**** as is the remark "You wouldn't want a Tiger tank to pop up in 1939 would you?". Neither remark as ANY bearing on sniper rifles and does nothing to advance the idea that they are so it's trolling simply to stir up [censored].

Go away. You're really starting to piss me off.

Don

[Deputy]

DRG said:
Dep, you're a troll and I'm calling you on that. You twist every perceived "error" to prove your point but the argument is totally bogus. We stated right from the beginning that "in this game a "sniper rifle" is the same no matter who's using it" I said you could think of it by any name you like . You twisted that into some kind of damning evidence that we are providing "a sniper rifle available months or even years before they were even produced " when in fact snipers and "sniper rifles" have been used by the US Army and USMC in every war it participated in in the 20th century. During WW1 the USMC used the Springfield 1903 with 5x Lyman and Winchester A5 scopes. During WW2 and later they mostly used Springfield 1903A1 rifles with the 8x Unertl scope and Springfield 1903A4 with the same scopes than the US Army (M73B1) and in WW1 and the interwar years the US Army used the Springfield 1903 as well so there's your "sniper rifle". It doesn't matter one iota if snipers did or didn't "enter into the picture in any quantity for the US until AFTER D-Day" The point is they DID exist and are in the OOB.

Even suggesting that the decision to make all sniper rifles equal is the same as "saying a Sherman tank is equal to a Tiger tank is equal to a T-34 is equal to a Churchill" is complete and utter bull**** as is the remark "You wouldn't want a Tiger tank to pop up in 1939 would you?". Neither remark as ANY bearing on sniper rifles and does nothing to advance the idea that they are so it's trolling simply to stir up [censored].

Go away. You're really starting to piss me off.

Don

Don,
I congradulate you and others on making a "perfect" sim that functions in WinXP . In the future I will consult with other users in PM who feel the same as me concerning OOB and other errors. Goodbye.

Dep

[DRG]

Thanks. It's just about the best Christmas present I could ask for.

Now..........if anyone else thinks the game has "death rays attached to the bombs" or that "The P-51 Mustang seems to be a flying Tiger tank. " or that "the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever" or that even when the game user preferences are reduced to the lowest possible number for the US side you think that " Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers." or that you totally misinterpret the help manual info that... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!." and then jump to the conclusion that this means "it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans" ( HE kill has nothing to do with warhead size if this is too confusing ) and then claim " the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct. " or if you want try to make the point that there is ". No way!! " the " Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range." because you think "each hex is 250 meters across " ( it's fifty and always has been and even SP3 was "only "200 yards across ).......IF any of you reading this believe all that ( or even some of it... ) Please follow Dep off this forum.

........and all that came out in less than 40 posts

I am quite willing to discuss real or imagined flaws in the game but all this was so over the top as to be trollish.

Don

[Deputy]

DRG said:
Thanks. It's just about the best Christmas present I could ask for.

Now..........if anyone else thinks the game has "death rays attached to the bombs" or that "The P-51 Mustang seems to be a flying Tiger tank. " or that "the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever" or that even when the game user preferences are reduced to the lowest possible number for the US side you think that " Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers." or that you totally misinterpret the help manual info that... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!." and then jump to the conclusion that this means "it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans" ( HE kill has nothing to do with warhead size if this is too confusing ) and then claim " the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct. " or if you want try to make the point that there is ". No way!! " the " Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range." because you think "each hex is 250 meters across " ( it's fifty and always has been and even SP3 was "only "200 yards across ).......IF any of you reading this believe all that ( or even some of it... ) Please follow Dep off this forum.

........and all that came out in less than 40 posts

I am quite willing to discuss real or imagined flaws in the game but all this was so over the top as to be trollish.

Don

I just wish there was some way to send this crappy game (with the designer's attitudes it doesn't deserve to be called a "simulation") back for a refund.

[thatguy96]

Deputy said:

I just wish there was some way to send this crappy game (with the designer's attitudes it doesn't deserve to be called a "simulation") back for a refund.

Crappy because you don't have every specific sniper rifle you want? That's just a bit extreme.

[Deputy]

thatguy96 said:

Crappy because you don't have every specific sniper rifle you want? That's just a bit extreme.

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War, you will see that with input from users of the sim, it CAN be made much better. The developers of this game seem to think it has reached perfection, even though there are numerous people doing fixes to the OOB. I haven't seen this much negativity about user input since the days of the HIND helicopter simulation. Make an honest mistake in a comment and a wiseacre mod keeps throwing it back in your face OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Yet they REFUSE to see the errors present in the game. Or they blow them off as "not having a major effect on gameplay". because it doesn't affect the way THEY play the game. Unbelieveable.
SP:WAW is no longer getting support from the original design team. But people are so loyal to that sim that they are constantly coming out with mods that make it more and more authentic as well as more enjoyable to play. As far as I can see, WinSPWW2 is at a dead end. NO input is welcome, whether good or bad, unless the person giving the input meets with their "approval". The mods and designers are so thin-skinned that ANY criticism, even if there are mistakes in the criticism, is ridiculed or dismissed outright. The forum at SP:WAW is active to this day with helpful posts and comments from users and mods. This forum is all but dead. The mods actually seem to discourage any changes because they think WinSPWW2 has reached some kind of "perfection".
Sniper rifles is just ONE SMALL example I picked out from MANY problems in the sim. But the mods have intimidated or discouraged pretty much ALL input from users. So be it. The best thing you can say about WinSPWW2 is they got it running good on WinXP. That's about it.

Dep

[Mobhack]

From the Game Guide, right up front in the "What is WinSPMBT" section:

WinSPMBT ( Windows, Steel Panthers, Main Battle Tank ) is a Post World War II combined arms tactical level wargame.

Its time frame covers 1946 to 2020 AD. WinSPMBT has 92 nation's forces available for historical or "what-if" experimental battles. It is hexagon based, and the game is an alternating turn based (I go you go or IGOUGO) design.

One unit playing piece represents one vehicle or gun, or an infantry section or squad of up to 13 men or a section of 1 to 4 support weapons. Therefore, 1 machine gun or mortar "piece" CAN represent 2 or 3 actual MG or mortars.

One game hexagon represents 50 metres of terrain.

One game move (player 1 turn plus player 2 turn) represents roughly 2 - 3 minutes of 'real time'.

This is a wargame. It is not a "sim", you are the only one who keeps calling it so. If you want a tank sim - try Steel Beasts. It's used by militaries, in the "Pro" version. It apparently has a physics model for shell flight etc. And as explained before, for the sort of micro-detail between personal weapon types you seem to want, then there are real-time "squad level" games out there that may be regarded as sims, but I think they sell themselves as games rather than as simulations, per se.

So this is a wargame - a computer version of the 1/300 tabletop rules with micro-armour and model villages etc. at batallion level. Funnily enough - rule sets for such (e.g. WRG and Challenger, Firefly and so forth) - use generic "Rifle", "SMG", "LMG", "MMG", while differentiating between say a 6 pounder ATG and a 50mm L60, just like we do. And only one "sniper rifle".. Only skirmish level platoon level or less wargame rulesets will maybe have individual different personal weapons statistics.

However, if you feel you need dozens different individually crafted sniper rifles to fit your perceptions of reality in the game, then you have the Mobhack data editor at your disposal. You can hand-craft your own OOBS to suit yourself, but remember that there are a maximum of 250 weapons in each OOB!.

As explained before - differentiating between different sniper rifles, or smgs etc for that matter, will make zero actual difference in the game, bar adding unnecessary complication in the OOBs. And also it will use up valuable weapons slots in each OOB for what is essentially the same item. We already differentiate marksmen (plain rifle), basic snipers (sniper rifle) through to more advanced ones, by using units with different Fire Control and Range Finder values as has been previously explained in this thread.

Cheers
Andy

[Charles22]

Mobhack said:
From the Game Guide, right up front in the "What is WinSPMBT" section:

This is a wargame. It is not a "sim", you are the only one who keeps calling it so. If you want a tank sim - try Steel Beasts. It's used by militaries, in the "Pro" version. It apparently has a physics model for shell flight etc. And as explained before, for the sort of micro-detail between personal weapon types you seem to want, then there are real-time "squad level" games out there that may be regarded as sims, but I think they sell themselves as games rather than as simulations, per se.

So this is a wargame - a computer version of the 1/300 tabletop rules with micro-armour and model villages etc. at batallion level. Funnily enough - rule sets for such (e.g. WRG and Challenger, Firefly and so forth) - use generic "Rifle", "SMG", "LMG", "MMG", while differentiating between say a 6 pounder ATG and a 50mm L60, just like we do. And only one "sniper rifle".. Only skirmish level platoon level or less wargame rulesets will maybe have individual different personal weapons statistics.

However, if you feel you need dozens different individually crafted sniper rifles to fit your perceptions of reality in the game, then you have the Mobhack data editor at your disposal. You can hand-craft your own OOBS to suit yourself, but remember that there are a maximum of 250 weapons in each OOB!.

As explained before - differentiating between different sniper rifles, or smgs etc for that matter, will make zero actual difference in the game, bar adding unnecessary complication in the OOBs. And also it will use up valuable weapons slots in each OOB for what is essentially the same item. We already differentiate marksmen (plain rifle), basic snipers (sniper rifle) through to more advanced ones, by using units with different Fire Control and Range Finder values as has been previously explained in this thread.

Cheers
Andy

Deputy: Keep what he just said above very well in mind. Both SP reditions have their limits. Would you rather have a Panther with a different gun, ar additional MG's, or an additional sniper unit? I will take more variations to armor any day, and both games are named for armor anyway. I would expect infantry weapons to take somethign of a back seat, but in any acse the main point is they have only so much space to make units. If somebody makes Combat Leader, which Matrix caved on, now there you might be talking the possibility of great detail more across the board, but htese old games are fairly limited.

[RVPERTVS]

DRG said:
Thanks. It's just about the best Christmas present I could ask for.

Now..........if anyone else thinks the game has "death rays attached to the bombs" or that "The P-51 Mustang seems to be a flying Tiger tank. " or that "the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever" or that even when the game user preferences are reduced to the lowest possible number for the US side you think that " Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers." or that you totally misinterpret the help manual info that... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!." and then jump to the conclusion that this means "it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans" ( HE kill has nothing to do with warhead size if this is too confusing ) and then claim " the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct. " or if you want try to make the point that there is ". No way!! " the " Thompson and MP38/40 is shown as having a 3 hex range." because you think "each hex is 250 meters across " ( it's fifty and always has been and even SP3 was "only "200 yards across ).......IF any of you reading this believe all that ( or even some of it... ) Please follow Dep off this forum.

........and all that came out in less than 40 posts

I am quite willing to discuss real or imagined flaws in the game but all this was so over the top as to be trollish.

Don

WOW Don this guy really pissed you off!! I get your point.

Perhaps the main issue is that Deputy totally missed the fact that SP is indeed a game depicting miniature wargaming with virtual (and far cheaper) units and terrain and the PC runing the combat throws, arty routines and morale checks(which makes it a more practical depiction of the tabletop) just as Andy says, not a simulation.

Big fact indeed because I haven´t yet seen any simulation played in turns

Keep up the good work!
Robert