US Sniper rifle???

[Mobhack]

It is because this game is based on unit class mainly. There are very few real weapon classes (no WC_SMG, WC_PISTOL - just WT_PRIME_INF, WT_FLAME etc. In order to figure out if say an SMG is fired when deep in the guts of the code, you need to look at range, HE kill and so on, and figure it out from these data..)

A sniper rifle given to an ordinary rifle squad is different from a sniper with sniper rifle - the sniper unit class has a few privileges (if it is size 0!), when being shot at in cover beyond a couple of hexes, as well as its being size 0. But when a sniper unit class is sniping another sniper unit class - the target one does not get the sniper benefits (especially in cover etc). A squad with an added marksman's rifle will not have this. Thst is why sniper points are extra in the points calculator, for the extra built-in difficulties in killing them, if in cover, from direct-fire HE. (In area fire, they are just a regular size 0 squad).

An MMG given to a rifle unit, does not get the same benefits as one in a proper MG unit class, either (splash effects, a little extra ability on units in cover when firing direct fire, some lessening of a targeted sniper unit class if in cover ditto).

So - for snipers, in direct HE bullet fire, try to counter-snipe with a sniper of your own, or hose them down with an MMG section. Better yet, drop a shed load of mortars on them once located (even roughly).

They are also very vulnerable to close combat - so if you can close to 1 hex or 0 hex melee, they are toast.

Cheers
Andy

[Charles22]

Thanks. Yes I found the brandenburgers were 12 men. I don't intend to use sniper rifle equipped brandenburgers anytime soon, but their survivability makes their disadvantages in trying sniper fire considerably less meaningful. Even if the enemy isn't annoyed by them sniping, if they are seen alongside a bunch of other army units, then they will likely be targeted more simply because they cost more than the others.

I can't remember what the rating is called that the sniper can get a 10 rating for. Seems it was some form of fire control. The brandenburgers probably have a 2 rating in that department at best, but they do have excellent experience to slightly offset that. They're probably about 10pts higher in experience than the german regular wehrmacht sniper.

[chuckfourth]

Just when you thought it was safe. Please accept my humblest apologies for any ulcers that may begin hurting.
This is not a battalion level game. If it was, the smallest unit you could buy would be a battalion. Its a squad level game. As such the detail discussed by Deputy isnt beyond the scope of the game.
Note that in the game the American Thompson and M3 SMGs get an extra HE kill point (no its not micro modeleing its a great idea) merely because there calibre is larger, If this level of detail is worth incorporating then I think that doing the same for sniper rifles is also acceptable.
Clearly there is no reason not to change the generic sniper weapon and give it national flavour, other than lack of interest.
Remember this from the game guide,
"Grenades, rifle-grenades, infantry bombs, anti-tank grenades, infantry anti-tank mines and other anti-tank explosive devices have been extensively researched and have replaced the generic representations in most instances"
Oh and of course if your country didnt really have snipers then obviously someone would have found some scopes in the back of the trench and made sure that they got to those country bumpkins that were actually crack shots.
I have to agree with MajorDisaster in that If an infantry squad can't take out an identified sniper in short order I also think there's something wrong.

I often buy just an infantry battalion or even just a coy, and in that context this sort of detail becomes very important. Im sure Im not the only person who plays 'small' games.
Now Im not saying that snipers should be revised Im just saying that Deputy I think has a valid point.
But... If (and I dont know) the USA (or anyone else) had no sniper rifles pre 43 then I think they should be removed pre 43, Generic or not.
The play balance issue is of course that if the Germans and Russians? were the only countries to have "lots" of snipers then making snipers generic 'masks' this difference or 'advantage'
Im sure the designers are frying bigger fish anyway, just my 2 cents worth. Actually Id prefer it if you went away Brumbar.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Charles22]

quote: Clearly there is no reason not to change the generic sniper weapon and give it national flavour, other than lack of interest.

Ah yes, but you didn't think beyond one of the statements made earlier, which wouldn't take much effort, and at the same time your last conclusion in the quote is correct. Thinking beyond as earlier statement means when we were told of the 250 unit limit. Even if there is room in every army to have highly specialized snipers, and many of them have already 4 or 5 just for different fire control ratings, is it worth it when you consider you have just crippled any possible future additions in so doing?

So yeah, lack of interest plays into that, because as I said earlier, I would rather have more variants of the same tank, than 10-15 snipers in every army. The fact that every army has at least 4-5 different ones is far more than enough. The only problem with that is that the slots are better spent in some other way. If one would insist on them staying as snipers, than it might be a better thing to not have generic rifles for them, but less options for fire control, such that the same amount of slots are used.

In any case, the current sniper setup is just about the same thing, because you have so many different units for each level of fire control, you might as well be saying they each have either better rifles, or better scopes, or both.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Charles
there is no need to expand the number of snipers in the OOBs, one need only give whatever is already there 'real' rather than generic values that would thus make each sniper different for each nation.
For example Deputy mentions that the sights vary in quality, this would give diferent "accuracy" values for diferent countries snipers.
You may even end up with more space in the OOB if you could remove some.
Only the German OOB is out of space the rest can have as many snipers added as you like. I think there are 8 snipers in the GFerman OOB thats probably plenty to play with.
There is also marksmen to consider.
I think that the snipers that are so very hard for infantry to kill once spotted should be given movement of 1 to reflect the care they take with camoflage etc.

[Helm]

Perhaps in regard to the Sniper school being formed before the rifle was issued they just shouted bang ?

[chuckfourth]

Hi Helm
On the range (from memory) you look at the target focus on the front sight, back site, breath out till your confortable and gently pull the trigger, keep the stock firmly in the shoulder etc all of this takes some time to master and has to be "drilled" into you so its still there when your tired. you dont need a sniper rifle to do it any weapon will do. Then theres camoflage, movement, staying still with ants in your pants, etc none of which requires a rifle.
Re my previous post, I posted a bit quick yes indeed in the German OOB you have only range finder and fire control to differentiate between German sniper rifles as the weapons are full. The Germans may have to live with just the one sniper rifle.

[Charles22]

Yes, that was part of what I was trying to say, that you could have something approaching the non-generic and take up less space. OTOH, there is something to be said for the generic to a degree, because it does allow you that fire control flexibility. If you went with the non-generic, which fire control do you choose? That's a big question. And it's proably close to impossible to come up with the right scheme. Even if it isn't, if you really wanted the same FC flexibility with each case, then you really start running into a numbers problem. In any case, I think the FC ratings being different for the different sniper classes (and in other different factors) are a freestyle way of you choosing what sort of rifle and scope they have. It would truly be weird if you selected tanks in the same manner.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Charles
Well its fine that RF and FC values are a freestyle way of choosing rifles as long as those choices have some basis in reality.

Ian Hogg (from his book infantry weapons) has this to say. For the Mauser, a forward locking bolt gives it "greater accuracy" and it comes with a "4 power telescope which lived up to the high reputation of the german optics industry"
In Germany many other telescopes apparently appeared up until 44 when standard issue became a 1.5 power.
Lee Enfied, "never really a great success for really pin point shooting" because of a rear locking bolt.
No 4(T) had a no 32 telscope and was the first rifle in the Lee Enfield series that made a "good" sniper rifle. No 4s, like the german and russian rifles were hand selected for accuracy. They had I think a 3.5 magnification.
German Gewehr 43 semeiautomatic had a scope 4 times according to wikipedia.
Garrand had 2.2 magnification scope
There is a sniping springfield which persisted to the end of the war. May have had a 2.2* site.
Russia had the Moissin Nagent with a 4 or 3.5 telescope Hogg says "It was an accurate weapon for this role" He is not so complimentary on the Tokavrev "How often it was used as such (for sniping) one cannot tell".
The Japanese ariska rifle is a 6.5mm mauser copy and so accurate, type 97 is the sniping version "The japanese were also adept at using snipers or more properly sharpshooters, and the ariska was ideal for work of this kind"
Arisaka had a 2.5 scope

Which FC do you choose? well already I see that Jap, Brit, USA and Russ FC and RF selection is 10, 6, 3, and 0. Russ also has a 2 and Japan doesnt have a 0 wheras the Germans get 10 8 5 3 and 0 so sniping isn't as generic as may first appear.
As I see it the values are this. The -weapons- accuracy, basicly flatness of trajectory is roughly the same for each sniper rifle you might if you were to assume that the current 30 is correct for the (as it may be) "best" sniper rifles, Mauser and Arisaka and possibly Sprigfield and Moisant Nagent. You might give 25 to lee enfield and Garrand. The -units- FC value is about the sights quality and magnification the maximum of 10 can go to the 4* lenses giving the Mauser and Moisant Nagent FC of 10 the lee enfield with 3.5 then would get 9. Ariska at 2.5 would get 6 and Garand and Springfield at 2.2 would get 6 or 5. German 1.5 would get 4 (ie divide 10 by the Mausers 4* give the factor of 2.5 to multiply each magnification by. I dont know what the current FC values relate to.) The -units- RF is really for range finders but I understand that for snipers it is a way of giving them better target hit ability. It would be probably best to leave it unchanged, in that it should be the same as the FC value.
Not quite sure how to deal with the -weapons- range, a combination of accuracy and magnification. The max 15 probably Ok for all of them but real life testimonials would probably be in order. You would think the larger magnification scopes could hit out further.

Gamey players love snipers, they can call in artillery (an ability Id love to see removed), are hard to find, move quickly, can really deal out some death and are exteremely difficult to kill. I dont like them and I think they are a bit 'uber' in the game. Give them movement of 1 I say, marksmen can have the regulation 6.
And dont forget we can add the extra sniper rifles to all the other OOBs except Germanies, and so dont need different FCs and RAs for each -weapon-. For the Germans the current weapon 146 becomes the Mauser 4*. You could give the weapon as it appears in different -units- FC and RF of 0 to get a german marksman I guess. and a FC and RF of 4 for the mauser 1.5* though giving them all the same range is probably a bit of a stretch.

Best Regards Chuck.