Japanese OOB omissions.

[DRG]

chuckfourth said:
My mistake when I say v 7.0 had the missing Jap units I mean v 7.1. The removed formations are Formation 217 "Rifle Platoon D", and Formation 218 "Rifle Platoon E" these make up Formations 211 and 212 "Infantry Co G" and "Infantry Co H" which no longer appear in the game. Best Regards Chuck

Yes, those formations are only in dos v701. The only explanation we can come up with was there was a big gap in time between v701 being released and work starting on winspww2v1 with all of that time in between working on getting both games converted to windows and MBT released first and when the work started on cleaning up the Japanese OOB for WinSPWW2v1 we inadvertently used a V7 copy of the OOB as a starting point instead of a v701copy and that is why those formations are missing. They are now back in and will appear in the next patch. The GL, however, stays a GL integrated into an infantry squad. This was done with a number of OOB's using weapons like that and it's not going to change.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi DRG
Im not sure if you mean the direct fire or indirect fire GLs are staying in the Infantry platoon.
I would like to point out that If the dead (out of LOS) ground is due to differences in terrain height then you can't Z fire into it. If you search the reference I supplied for 'knee mortar'
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww...a/chapter9.htm
you will find that this is exactly what they were used for on Okinawa. Leaving them direct fire means you cant do this. ie supress/kill the enemy in (topographic) dead ground. This I think undervalues the weapon.
I realise I have said this before but making them indirect fire allows the user to choose direct or indirect fire as appropriate.
It also means that the weapon can be fired at the enemy from behind cover (out of enemy LOS) which is the correct use of a (this) mortar.
Lastly the Jap inf coy already has plenty of direct fire weapons, modeling the GL as indirect fire creates a much more interesting unit. The only one in the game with such a strong indirect fire capability on the platoon level.
Modelling the Jap GL as direct fire I think misses an oportunity to greatly improve the play quality of the game.
It Gives the Japs an ability to hit American infantry without exposing themselves to fire from the inevitable Shermans and LVTs.
Apologies for the annoyance Best Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

Read Don's post - the last sentence.

A member of the now-gone OOB design team tried this once. Result was hundreds of little tiddly mortar icons on the AI's baseline. AI does not move mortars. 10-hex range is less than useless, even in the defence, with likely 3 move delay to bring down indirect fire, and the AI rarely fires mortars direct if it has LOS but will plot for indirect.

You have been told before that tiddly mortars are sometimes available in the artillery page for some armies (e.g. a 2 inch section) or you can Mobhack your own for human-only use (the AI has fits with them).

There will be no rifle platoons with silly little tiddly-mortars inside of the rifle platoons. Tiddly mortars and grenade dischargers are DF weapons in the rifle sections in the SP series games.

I have used the 2 inch mortar as well, so I know how useless the things are in reality.

Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy
Fair enough, Knee mortars stay direct fire, its your game after all. But one can only wonder why. Having a close look at your post It seems that all you concerns are easily fixed, perhaps I can help you?

Mobhack said: A member of the now-gone OOB design team tried this once. Result was hundreds of little tiddly mortar icons on the AI's baseline.--- AI does not move mortars. the AI rarely fires mortars direct if it has LOS but will plot for indirect.

How about this for a solution,
Replace all the direct fire knee mortar (Gl's) sections in each japanese infantry platoon with indirect fire weapons. Remove all these formations from the AI picklist. For the AI create some direct fire Gl platoons and use these to build coys, these direct fire formations need not be available or visible to the human player. So... AI no longer has any problems, Human Players can now choose wether to use the knee mortar direct or indirect instead of being forced to use them direct.

Mobhack said: 10-hex range is less than useless, even in the defence, with likely 3 move delay to bring down indirect fire

I guess that as you seem to think these weapons are contemptable then you probably dont use them. They are in fact very useful on indirect mode (and of course their range is 13 hexes not 10) If you buy a FO the delay is 2 or so, if you use z fire or preregister the delay is 0. Actually these weapons should get a delay of 0 in the bombardment screen not 3 which is obviously too long. They are very useful in the defence, If you have any sort of barrier to make the advancing enemy pause like the other 3 sections in the platoon, mines, wire or dragons teeth, a stream, rough terrain, built up area etc then they can be used to great effect, as the ememy bunches up in order to swarm you. They are also very handy for forcing tank riders to dismount all of which can be done from behind cover without taking any casualties.

Mobhack said: You have been told before that tiddly mortars are sometimes available in the artillery page for some armies (e.g. a 2 inch section)

Ok for gamey players that arnt concerned with historically accurate formations, not so good for everyone else. If you buy the indirect fire "light mortars" to give a platoon indirect fire you end up with a platoon with 3 GL sections instead of 1 and an unwanted scout team your platoon has grown from 4 to basically 7 sections. In a 4 platoon coy you end up with 4 extra sections and 2 unwanted scout "sections" and so on, large infantry formations soon become grossly inflated, unwieldly and way too expensive.

Mobhack said: or you can Mobhack your own for human-only use (the AI has fits with them).

I can indeed but I am posting to point out an 'easily fixed' error in your OOB's. ie you have an indirect fire weapon incorrectly modeled as a direct fire weapon. As I already said the AI neednt use indirect fire mortars.

Mobhack said: There will be no rifle platoons with silly little tiddly-mortars inside of the rifle platoons. Tiddly mortars and grenade dischargers are DF weapons in the rifle sections in the SP series games.

Well I dont know what you mean by grenades dischargers but knee mortars are mortars, knee mortars were usually operated by a three man crew
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_mortar
they were employed as mortars and have several times the range of rifle grenades, there is no comparison.
Just because something was modeled wrong in the past doesnt mean it has to be modeled wrong in the present. There are plenty of other OOB errors that have been picked up and fixed.

Mobhack said: I have used the 2 inch mortar as well, so I know how useless the things are in reality.

Please read the references to knee mortars in this article
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww...a/chapter9.htm
they are far from useless. Perhaps the uselessness of the 2 inch has something to do with the operator? The knee mortar is held at 45 degrees and a screw adjusted to change range, not whats done with the 2 inch. the knee mortar fires a bomb about the same as a grenade so I guess grenades are also silly little tiddly- explosive then? bet a lot of dead marines would disagree with you anyway.
also of interest
http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld/t89pix.htm
Anyway just because they are silly little tiddly-mortars is no excuse to model them incorrectly. They are mortars, removing their ability to hit a target from behind cover and removing there ability to search out the enemy in dead ground is simply wrong.
Bottom line is it makes a big difference to jap OOB to have the mortars modeled indirect simply because there are so many of them. There indirect capability is extremely useful in the low vis jungle and in the various Island defences the Japs undertook.
As a playbalance issue Japanese platoons could take out LVTs with this weapon, A very good reason to leave them on the beach, in game LVTs are happy to roam about everywhere becaust the Knee mortar hasnt got its indirect fire capability.
Best regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

Chuck

If you have the need for indirect fire G/L as light mortars - then use formation #88 "light mortars".

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

chuckfourth said:
Well I dont know what you mean by grenades dischargers but knee mortars are mortars,

Chuck, it's not a true mortar. Even your much vaunted Wikipedia article describes it as a Grenade Discharger and the "Nambu World" webpage refers to it as a Grenade Discharger or Grenade Launcher and it ALSO says

Type 89 covered the gap between the range a hand grenade could be thrown and the range of a true mortar

and never actually refers to it AS a "mortar" except as it's nickname "knee mortar"

Now go and read the information provided in the link in the Wiki article LINK . Once the page loads look under "Infantry support weapons"

The most basic support weapon available in the average rifle platoon was the 50mm grenade launcher, erroneously known to the Americans as the "knee mortar." In reality it was hardly a mortar at all, more akin to the American M79 grenade-launcher (40mm) of Vietnam era fame, at least in terms of its lightness and general handiness. Unlike the later US weapon, however, the Japanese Type 89 grenade launcher was not shoulder-fired, but rather was meant to be braced against the ground when shooting

It was a game design decision to do this. So sorry you disagree but as you say "its your game after all". Yes, it is and we provide everyone with the tools to change anything they don't like or disagre with.

You have a history of sarcasm and abuse to anyone who disagrees with you and this last post is no exception.Take this as a warning it will not be tolerated any longer.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
Yes you are correct the GL is a grenade dicharger, with the proviso that the grenade has to have a propulsive charge attached to its bottom making it remarkably similar to a mortar bomb.
If you were to compare it to a 'bona fida' grenade launcher, say the M79, we find some important differences, The GL bomb has to be dropped down the barrel rather than loaded at the other end. As the bomb is a loose fit you cant fire it at less than horizontal, it will slide out again, and at anywhere near horizontal you are risking a missfire as the bomb may have moved back up the barrel. You also have to fire it with the base against something solid not your shoulder.
But it does make quite a good little mortar heres why.
From http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld/t89pix.htm
"the weapon is always held at a 45 degree angle to the ground, and some even had a spirit level sight to let you know when you were at exactly 45 degrees"

The GL changes the -length- of the barrel (not the angle of the barrel as in a 'true' mortar) to alter the velocity of the projectile and so its range. This is important because as your not changing the angle of the barrel you dont -need- a bipod to adjust tube angle you just need it to support the GL barrel at 45 degrees. The Japanese decided that it was better to just train the operatot to hold it at 45 degree and save the weight of a support/bipod.
Id wager that the GL is calibrated/designed so that at 45 degrees the bomb travels to exactly the range you set on the range scale using the range adjustment knob. So firing blind you can lob the bomb to whatever distance you want, if you can just hold it at 45 degrees(note some have spirit levels). So you can use it to hit preregistered or 'known distance' targets. ie you can use it accurately against a target without having the target in view, the critical difference I would think between a grenade discharger and a mortar.
If you have a spotter you dont need to have it at 45 degrees anyway, you just have to hold it at the -same- angle throughout the "shoot" and it performs exactly the same as any other small mortar. The spotter, say crewman No. 3 is the only one who needs to be in LOS of the target. He calls the correction and the firer, crewman No. 1 adjusts the range on the scale using the "range adjustment knob". The loader, No. 2 is arming the bombs and dropping them down the barrel. Once zeroed, all No. 1 does is hold the GL steady and pull the trigger. ie No. 1 is the bipod. Its a very Japanese idea. Note Wiki states it has a 3 man crew, like any other light mortar.
The range scale goes from 120 to 650 m. ie The GL has a minimum range owing to its plunging trajectory and inability to shoot at shallow angles, like all mortars.
So what can a brixia or any other light mortar do that the knee mortar cant?
Also from http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld/t89pix.htm,
"The Type 89 was extremely accurate in the hands of a skilled operator"
This is because unlike regular mortars it has a barrel instead of a tube, ie rifling (another source of confusion with grenade dischargers no doubt along with the trigger). Though the bomb will fall out if you point the barrel down, once fired a copper band expands giving a seal and engaging the rifling, rifling equalling better accuraccy when compared to a typical mortar.
As a matter of semantics, this site calls the GL's bomb a mortar round.
http://www.inert-ord.net/jap02h/knee/index.html
Note also that the bomb has a mortar type impact fuse rather than the grenade discharger timer fuse.
Though your Wiki quote does say that it isnt a true mortar it doesnt say why. Your quote says that its similar to a grenade launcher but only because of its "lightness and general handiness" not because of its method of employment. The link also says,
" ...knee mortar... braced against the ground when shooting, in this respect resembling the conventional mortar family"
Looking at some of the units currently in the game,
USA formation 223 "Infantry Co" has 3 60mm indirect fire mortars range 40 hexes
USSR formation 009 "Rifle Company+" has 3 50mm indirect fire mortars range 16 hexes
Italy formation 104 "Co Fanteria 40" has 3 45mm indirect fire mortars range 12 hexes
Germany formation 433/434 "Inf Kp (GrW)" has 3 50mm indirect fire mortars range 10 hexes
So why cant the Japs have theirs?
Though Mobhack said there will be no rifle platoons with silly little tiddly-mortars inside of the rifle platoons The German fomations above do contain silly little tiddly-mortars inside of the rifle platoons. Also Mobhack called them silly little tiddy -mortars-, not silly little tiddy grenade dischargers, Mobhacks service is I believe in mortars.
The reason I persist with this is because I consider that modeling GL as a Grenade discharger rather than an indirect fire light mortar is an error in your OOB. Changing it to such would be a great way to add a lot of interest to the Japanese OOB, exactly because the Japanese have so many of them.
Well sorry for any offence caused intentional or not. I will try not to abuse anyone further or adopt a sarcastic tone.
I hope that I have brought something to the table that you were unaware of.
Best Regards Chuck

[Mobhack]

formation 433 in the German OOB is not used by the AI, nor is 434.

Formation 104 in the Italian OOB, is funnily enough, not ever used by the AI.

Formation #9 in the Soviet oob is not used by the AI.

The USA 60mm mortar has a 2 kilometer (40 hex) range, and is therefore usable by the AI, sometimes. It is just borderline useful for a human player, too - at least in the defence.

All these formations were added by OOB designers in the past, and some of these, as I have stated, ended up in the AI pick in past years, resulting in floods of tiny little one-tube mortar elements that sat about on the enemy start line doing nothing useful, other than soaking up the max number of units (and filling the bombardment screen with frankly useless units as well - do you really want to have to page through 3 or 4 pages of mini mortars (none in range of anything) to get to your real arty? Would end users really like to have to move 20 or 30 of these things all the way across the map, just so they can get within 500 metres, and wait 2 turns to unload their 24 odds itty-bitty bombs, then become even more useless items?!?).

Little "commando mortars" are therefore best left in SP as direct-fire "grenade launcher" type weapons within the rifle sections - as with the German heavy infantry sections for example. As has been pointed out to you again, and again.

There may well be other formations including micro-mortars depending on whatever OOB designer's "bright idea" (tm) at the time managed to sneak in. I think one of the OOB designers had such tiddly mortars in each platoon of one of his designs, possibly German - and that was fun for the AI, or any human player who had to deal with the hordes of the things - not. All are worthless in game terms. Any such still in there, are left for use by any human player insane enough to want to do so. Hopefully, any such are not used by the AI pick, and I have managed to weed the crazy things out!. Adding new Japanese (or any other) formations with such useless (in game terms) items, would be just as pointless, and only of interest to the deranged, masochistic, or obsessive-compulsive "train spotter" type player.

As I said to you before - use the existing formation #88 "light mortars" if you want to use these things as mini mortars. Or, you can use Mobhack to edit yourself some sort of formation that suits your ideas of reality, as has been pointed out to you in the past.

This discussion is now closed.

Andy