Japanese OOB omissions.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy
Fair enough, Knee mortars stay direct fire, its your game after all. But one can only wonder why. Having a close look at your post It seems that all you concerns are easily fixed, perhaps I can help you?

Mobhack said: A member of the now-gone OOB design team tried this once. Result was hundreds of little tiddly mortar icons on the AI's baseline.--- AI does not move mortars. the AI rarely fires mortars direct if it has LOS but will plot for indirect.

How about this for a solution,
Replace all the direct fire knee mortar (Gl's) sections in each japanese infantry platoon with indirect fire weapons. Remove all these formations from the AI picklist. For the AI create some direct fire Gl platoons and use these to build coys, these direct fire formations need not be available or visible to the human player. So... AI no longer has any problems, Human Players can now choose wether to use the knee mortar direct or indirect instead of being forced to use them direct.

Mobhack said: 10-hex range is less than useless, even in the defence, with likely 3 move delay to bring down indirect fire

I guess that as you seem to think these weapons are contemptable then you probably dont use them. They are in fact very useful on indirect mode (and of course their range is 13 hexes not 10) If you buy a FO the delay is 2 or so, if you use z fire or preregister the delay is 0. Actually these weapons should get a delay of 0 in the bombardment screen not 3 which is obviously too long. They are very useful in the defence, If you have any sort of barrier to make the advancing enemy pause like the other 3 sections in the platoon, mines, wire or dragons teeth, a stream, rough terrain, built up area etc then they can be used to great effect, as the ememy bunches up in order to swarm you. They are also very handy for forcing tank riders to dismount all of which can be done from behind cover without taking any casualties.

Mobhack said: You have been told before that tiddly mortars are sometimes available in the artillery page for some armies (e.g. a 2 inch section)

Ok for gamey players that arnt concerned with historically accurate formations, not so good for everyone else. If you buy the indirect fire "light mortars" to give a platoon indirect fire you end up with a platoon with 3 GL sections instead of 1 and an unwanted scout team your platoon has grown from 4 to basically 7 sections. In a 4 platoon coy you end up with 4 extra sections and 2 unwanted scout "sections" and so on, large infantry formations soon become grossly inflated, unwieldly and way too expensive.

Mobhack said: or you can Mobhack your own for human-only use (the AI has fits with them).

I can indeed but I am posting to point out an 'easily fixed' error in your OOB's. ie you have an indirect fire weapon incorrectly modeled as a direct fire weapon. As I already said the AI neednt use indirect fire mortars.

Mobhack said: There will be no rifle platoons with silly little tiddly-mortars inside of the rifle platoons. Tiddly mortars and grenade dischargers are DF weapons in the rifle sections in the SP series games.

Well I dont know what you mean by grenades dischargers but knee mortars are mortars, knee mortars were usually operated by a three man crew
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_mortar
they were employed as mortars and have several times the range of rifle grenades, there is no comparison.
Just because something was modeled wrong in the past doesnt mean it has to be modeled wrong in the present. There are plenty of other OOB errors that have been picked up and fixed.

Mobhack said: I have used the 2 inch mortar as well, so I know how useless the things are in reality.

Please read the references to knee mortars in this article
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww...a/chapter9.htm
they are far from useless. Perhaps the uselessness of the 2 inch has something to do with the operator? The knee mortar is held at 45 degrees and a screw adjusted to change range, not whats done with the 2 inch. the knee mortar fires a bomb about the same as a grenade so I guess grenades are also silly little tiddly- explosive then? bet a lot of dead marines would disagree with you anyway.
also of interest
http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld/t89pix.htm
Anyway just because they are silly little tiddly-mortars is no excuse to model them incorrectly. They are mortars, removing their ability to hit a target from behind cover and removing there ability to search out the enemy in dead ground is simply wrong.
Bottom line is it makes a big difference to jap OOB to have the mortars modeled indirect simply because there are so many of them. There indirect capability is extremely useful in the low vis jungle and in the various Island defences the Japs undertook.
As a playbalance issue Japanese platoons could take out LVTs with this weapon, A very good reason to leave them on the beach, in game LVTs are happy to roam about everywhere becaust the Knee mortar hasnt got its indirect fire capability.
Best regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

Chuck

If you have the need for indirect fire G/L as light mortars - then use formation #88 "light mortars".

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

chuckfourth said:
Well I dont know what you mean by grenades dischargers but knee mortars are mortars,

Chuck, it's not a true mortar. Even your much vaunted Wikipedia article describes it as a Grenade Discharger and the "Nambu World" webpage refers to it as a Grenade Discharger or Grenade Launcher and it ALSO says

Type 89 covered the gap between the range a hand grenade could be thrown and the range of a true mortar

and never actually refers to it AS a "mortar" except as it's nickname "knee mortar"

Now go and read the information provided in the link in the Wiki article LINK . Once the page loads look under "Infantry support weapons"

The most basic support weapon available in the average rifle platoon was the 50mm grenade launcher, erroneously known to the Americans as the "knee mortar." In reality it was hardly a mortar at all, more akin to the American M79 grenade-launcher (40mm) of Vietnam era fame, at least in terms of its lightness and general handiness. Unlike the later US weapon, however, the Japanese Type 89 grenade launcher was not shoulder-fired, but rather was meant to be braced against the ground when shooting

It was a game design decision to do this. So sorry you disagree but as you say "its your game after all". Yes, it is and we provide everyone with the tools to change anything they don't like or disagre with.

You have a history of sarcasm and abuse to anyone who disagrees with you and this last post is no exception.Take this as a warning it will not be tolerated any longer.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
Yes you are correct the GL is a grenade dicharger, with the proviso that the grenade has to have a propulsive charge attached to its bottom making it remarkably similar to a mortar bomb.
If you were to compare it to a 'bona fida' grenade launcher, say the M79, we find some important differences, The GL bomb has to be dropped down the barrel rather than loaded at the other end. As the bomb is a loose fit you cant fire it at less than horizontal, it will slide out again, and at anywhere near horizontal you are risking a missfire as the bomb may have moved back up the barrel. You also have to fire it with the base against something solid not your shoulder.
But it does make quite a good little mortar heres why.
From http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld/t89pix.htm
"the weapon is always held at a 45 degree angle to the ground, and some even had a spirit level sight to let you know when you were at exactly 45 degrees"

The GL changes the -length- of the barrel (not the angle of the barrel as in a 'true' mortar) to alter the velocity of the projectile and so its range. This is important because as your not changing the angle of the barrel you dont -need- a bipod to adjust tube angle you just need it to support the GL barrel at 45 degrees. The Japanese decided that it was better to just train the operatot to hold it at 45 degree and save the weight of a support/bipod.
Id wager that the GL is calibrated/designed so that at 45 degrees the bomb travels to exactly the range you set on the range scale using the range adjustment knob. So firing blind you can lob the bomb to whatever distance you want, if you can just hold it at 45 degrees(note some have spirit levels). So you can use it to hit preregistered or 'known distance' targets. ie you can use it accurately against a target without having the target in view, the critical difference I would think between a grenade discharger and a mortar.
If you have a spotter you dont need to have it at 45 degrees anyway, you just have to hold it at the -same- angle throughout the "shoot" and it performs exactly the same as any other small mortar. The spotter, say crewman No. 3 is the only one who needs to be in LOS of the target. He calls the correction and the firer, crewman No. 1 adjusts the range on the scale using the "range adjustment knob". The loader, No. 2 is arming the bombs and dropping them down the barrel. Once zeroed, all No. 1 does is hold the GL steady and pull the trigger. ie No. 1 is the bipod. Its a very Japanese idea. Note Wiki states it has a 3 man crew, like any other light mortar.
The range scale goes from 120 to 650 m. ie The GL has a minimum range owing to its plunging trajectory and inability to shoot at shallow angles, like all mortars.
So what can a brixia or any other light mortar do that the knee mortar cant?
Also from http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld/t89pix.htm,
"The Type 89 was extremely accurate in the hands of a skilled operator"
This is because unlike regular mortars it has a barrel instead of a tube, ie rifling (another source of confusion with grenade dischargers no doubt along with the trigger). Though the bomb will fall out if you point the barrel down, once fired a copper band expands giving a seal and engaging the rifling, rifling equalling better accuraccy when compared to a typical mortar.
As a matter of semantics, this site calls the GL's bomb a mortar round.
http://www.inert-ord.net/jap02h/knee/index.html
Note also that the bomb has a mortar type impact fuse rather than the grenade discharger timer fuse.
Though your Wiki quote does say that it isnt a true mortar it doesnt say why. Your quote says that its similar to a grenade launcher but only because of its "lightness and general handiness" not because of its method of employment. The link also says,
" ...knee mortar... braced against the ground when shooting, in this respect resembling the conventional mortar family"
Looking at some of the units currently in the game,
USA formation 223 "Infantry Co" has 3 60mm indirect fire mortars range 40 hexes
USSR formation 009 "Rifle Company+" has 3 50mm indirect fire mortars range 16 hexes
Italy formation 104 "Co Fanteria 40" has 3 45mm indirect fire mortars range 12 hexes
Germany formation 433/434 "Inf Kp (GrW)" has 3 50mm indirect fire mortars range 10 hexes
So why cant the Japs have theirs?
Though Mobhack said there will be no rifle platoons with silly little tiddly-mortars inside of the rifle platoons The German fomations above do contain silly little tiddly-mortars inside of the rifle platoons. Also Mobhack called them silly little tiddy -mortars-, not silly little tiddy grenade dischargers, Mobhacks service is I believe in mortars.
The reason I persist with this is because I consider that modeling GL as a Grenade discharger rather than an indirect fire light mortar is an error in your OOB. Changing it to such would be a great way to add a lot of interest to the Japanese OOB, exactly because the Japanese have so many of them.
Well sorry for any offence caused intentional or not. I will try not to abuse anyone further or adopt a sarcastic tone.
I hope that I have brought something to the table that you were unaware of.
Best Regards Chuck

[Mobhack]

formation 433 in the German OOB is not used by the AI, nor is 434.

Formation 104 in the Italian OOB, is funnily enough, not ever used by the AI.

Formation #9 in the Soviet oob is not used by the AI.

The USA 60mm mortar has a 2 kilometer (40 hex) range, and is therefore usable by the AI, sometimes. It is just borderline useful for a human player, too - at least in the defence.

All these formations were added by OOB designers in the past, and some of these, as I have stated, ended up in the AI pick in past years, resulting in floods of tiny little one-tube mortar elements that sat about on the enemy start line doing nothing useful, other than soaking up the max number of units (and filling the bombardment screen with frankly useless units as well - do you really want to have to page through 3 or 4 pages of mini mortars (none in range of anything) to get to your real arty? Would end users really like to have to move 20 or 30 of these things all the way across the map, just so they can get within 500 metres, and wait 2 turns to unload their 24 odds itty-bitty bombs, then become even more useless items?!?).

Little "commando mortars" are therefore best left in SP as direct-fire "grenade launcher" type weapons within the rifle sections - as with the German heavy infantry sections for example. As has been pointed out to you again, and again.

There may well be other formations including micro-mortars depending on whatever OOB designer's "bright idea" (tm) at the time managed to sneak in. I think one of the OOB designers had such tiddly mortars in each platoon of one of his designs, possibly German - and that was fun for the AI, or any human player who had to deal with the hordes of the things - not. All are worthless in game terms. Any such still in there, are left for use by any human player insane enough to want to do so. Hopefully, any such are not used by the AI pick, and I have managed to weed the crazy things out!. Adding new Japanese (or any other) formations with such useless (in game terms) items, would be just as pointless, and only of interest to the deranged, masochistic, or obsessive-compulsive "train spotter" type player.

As I said to you before - use the existing formation #88 "light mortars" if you want to use these things as mini mortars. Or, you can use Mobhack to edit yourself some sort of formation that suits your ideas of reality, as has been pointed out to you in the past.

This discussion is now closed.

Andy

[thatguy96]

I know the discussion in game terms is closed, but I want to quote various elements of the Military Intelligence Division of the US War Department's Special Series No. 30, which covers Japanese Mortars and Grenade Dischargers. It is dated March, 1945.

It has a complete description of tactics, and having not seen the Japanese manuals or a translation of a Japanese description of tactics I have no reason to imagine this information was incorrect.

It notes that in the offensive, the grenade discharger squad was deployed to an infantry platoon, and the grenade discharger squad receives its orders directly from the platoon commander who essentially preplans all of their initial firing and targets. The initial bombardment is usually on whatever appears to be the enemies front line, and is not conduct from a static starting position, but rather from a position once on the move with the infantry platoon in the assault.

After the initial bombardment of visual targets, it says that discretion is left very much up to the GL squad leader, but that their role is still very much in the neutralization of heavy weapons or other dug in emplacements. The inference is that all the targets are visually aquired and fired upon, with no blind shooting and no command and control setup allowing for massed indirect fire on targets beyond the visual capacity of the firing unit. Though there is C&C to the platoon commander for massed technically indirect fire against certain visual targets.

Likewise, if the Japanese squad leader discovers hostile automatic weapons or other important targets not designated in original fire plans, he places himself where he can observe the new target.

Essentially, the squad leader acts as the FO for his unit in this case. In game terms it would be hard to separate this out unless each unit was made individual mortars, and then you would have to stick to tactical doctrine of only using the first unit to designate targets for the rest of the squad, and only when in visual contact with the intended target.

On the defensive, the weapon is only intended to be used, according to the pamphlet, on largely pre-registered segments of the line against visually acquired advancing infantry.

For game purposes, it seems that it being a "direct fire" weapon very much fits with the tactical offensive and defensive utilization of the system.

[chuckfourth]

Hi ThatGuy96

What Im saying and I think no one is disputing this is that the Gl is a light mortar (or close enough) could be used in the indirect fire mode and was.
obviously the correct use of the weapon is to fire it from out of LOS of the target with a unobtrusive spotter calling the corrections. I mean why would you expose yourself to return fire when you dont have to? that clearly doesnt make sense.
Here is a small collection of quotes from real life experience of the weapon that I think show that the mortar was employed for indirect fire.
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww...a/chapter9.htm
"This brought the platoon within grenade range of Japanese on the other side, and the men were forced to scatter. Knee mortar shells began to fall, plummeting almost straight down."
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww...apter11.htm#b1
fought a desperate grenade battle to win the top of part of the escarpment. The Japanese showered the top with grenades and knee mortars from the reverse slope
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww...hapter5.htm#b1
"that the way to get out of that knee mortar fire was to get to where it was coming from. So we stood up in waves, firing everything we had and throwing hand grenades by the dozen, and charged the Jap position"
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww.../chapter13.htm
"Twenty replacements arrived from the shore party with two officers who had never seen combat. Grenades and knee mortar shells were falling among the troops so heavily that the executive officer moved his force to the crest of the hill. "The only way," he declared, "we can take the top of this hill is to make a Jap banzai charge ourselves"
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww.../chapter13.htm
"Two knee mortars, firing in unison 100 yards off either flank, systematically swept the American positions from one end to another"
http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww.../chapter13.htm
"At one time eight knee mortars were pounding the ridge, firing in pairs. Friendly artillery could to some extent keep off the charging Japanese but seemed unable to ferret out the enemy mortars, which were well protected."

Though targets may be 'visually aquired' this doesnt equate to the mortar being used in direct fire mode. As your source describes later the mortar can be kept out of sight and only the spotter need to keep the target in view. To model this somebody added a indirect fire mortar into the Jap inf platoon and added a size 0 patrol/spotter, My origional post noted that this unit had been removed. Personally I think you dont need the spotter anyway as he's too expensive, just let the platoon 0 section do the spotting. So... It seems to me that there is no need to try to model the squad leader as FO. None of the other light mortars in the game bother with this level of detail.
Your source also says they are used to suppress key weapons this ties in with this quote,
from http://www.wlhoward.com/museum/id577.htm
"One British officer I saw interviewed on TV remarked how even when his troops did manage to get the jump on the Japanese in jungle encounters, the enemy would usually recover quickly, and be hitting back with their "knee mortars" in short order.
This fire tended to keep the enemy's head down while the Japanese themselves deployed to meet this new threat, and began probing for the opponent's flank. All in all it was a very useful little device, and the Japanese certainly got plenty of mileage out of it."
You cant do this if the mortar is modeled as a direct fire weapon.
Looking at these real life testimonials it appears that the Marines/Brits problem is that they cannot return fire at the GLs, precisely because they are being used in indirect fire mode. Which is why I say that the indirect fire version should be offered in the Jap inf platoon.
Best Regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Mobhack said:
(and filling the bombardment screen with frankly useless units as well - do you really want to have to page through 3 or 4 pages of mini mortars (none in range of anything) to get to your real arty?

You buy the real arty before the GLs puttig it at the start of the list, no paging required, If you want to know which GLs are in range just select the hex you want to hit and all the GLs in range will get an active cancel button you now know which one to fire.

Mobhack said:
Would end users really like to have to move 20 or 30 of these things all the way across the map,

Wether they are direct fire or indirect fire you still have to move them accross the map.

Mobhack said:
just so they can get within 500 metres, and wait 2 turns to unload their 24 odds itty-bitty bombs, then become even more useless items?!?).

They should have a delay of 0 not 2, you can use the z key to get around this in some cases. Wether they are direct or indirect fire they run out of ammo pretty quickly so become "even more useless" applies equally to direct fire or indirect fire modeling.

Mobhack said:
Little "commando mortars" are therefore best left in SP as direct-fire "grenade launcher" type weapons within the rifle sections - as with the German heavy infantry sections for example.

So the "therefore" isnt relevant or supported, in fact no argument as to why they cant be modeled correctly as indirect fire weapons within platoons has been presented anywhere in this thread.

Mobhack said:
As I said to you before - use the existing formation #88 "light mortars" if you want to use these things as mini mortars.

This doesnt work as the formation mentioned is too slow and so cant keep up with the reat of the platoon

Mobhack said:
Or, you can use Mobhack to edit yourself some sort of formation that suits your ideas of reality, as has been pointed out to you in the past.

It is very clear that the weapon was used indirect, This is not about my ideas but the facts, your direct fire version is incorrectly modeled which is what I have pointed out. 89 is clearly a light mortar not a grenade launcher.

from http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/grenade.htm
Type 10 Grenade Discharger range 175mm
and
"The kill of Type 89 Grenade was three times as much as that of the normal grenade."
So not only is the range of the type 10 wrong but the HE value of the type 89 appears underrated
However
http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd...s/chapter1.htm
gives a range of 250 yds for the type 10.
So whoever substituted the direct fire Gls for the indirect fire GLs got the type 10 range wrong. At 150m range it is acceptable to model the type 10 as direct fire, However it is wrong to model the 89 as direct fire, it clearly is a light mortar.

Bottom line is that it would be best to offer both direct and indirect type 89 Gls in the Jap inf platoons. Players could choose for themselves rather than being forced to abide by someone elses preferences.
Best Regards Chuck

[DRG]

I assume your "plan" here is to ignore what we and others say and simply repeat your idea over and over ad nauseum with longer and longer posts until we just give in and do it your way ?

Not going to happen Chuck and there ARE limits to our patience and you are right on the line ATM

I have stated our position on this issue . I have ample justification for the decision and I recently , and totally by accident, found a set of table top wargame rules that also model them as direct fire......

"While nominally an indirect fire weapon, the grenade discharger's was really used as a company support direct fire weapon. "

NOMINALLY Chuck NOMINALLY and in the game you can use the Z key to fire these things into hexes you normally could not fire directly so they CAN fulfill their "nominal" use as indirect fire weapons if you so desire.

Andy said four posts ago the subject is closed. I guess we should have locked the thread then. It is now

I will, however, review the ranges given to these two grenade launchers in the game and if I find there is justification for changing the ranges I will but as your examples show, there are variations on the ranges given for each weapon depending on the source and I assume you did note the HUGE difference in range of the type 89 given by Taki depending on which grenade was fired from the weapon. 650 m (In case of Type 89 Grenade), 190 m (In case of Normal Grenades) and I hope you noted that although Taki claims "The kill of Type 89 Grenade was three times as much as that of the normal grenade" he gives absolutely no data for a "Type 89 Grenade" aside from a photo Strange given the detail found for other grenades.

However, they will stay DF weapons in the squads in the game as we said right from the start

Don