Bogarus Rises! Dominions 3.14 Now Available!

[Wrana]

To Kuritza:

Thats because bylinas are centered aroud several heroes who lived at about the same time Ilya Muromets, Dobrynya Nikitych and Alesha Popovitch, mostly. But druzhinas arent necessarily assotiated with that particular Knyaz, or any bogatyr at all.

Well, you are just wrong: Ilya Murometz (probably Murmanin, or Morovlenin - such versions were also used) may be a combination figure (he is also noted in German tale originating at about 11th century; some Jew enthusiasts even say that he was a Jew & his surname is actually Morovlenin, meaning "wall-builder" ), but if bylinas' hero is based on actual man - than he is most probably Ilya 'Chobotok' ("The Boot" - for fighting the steppe invaders with such a weapon!)) Pechersky, living at 12th century, buried at Kiev monks' ossiary and later declared a saint by an Orthodox Church;
Dobrynya Nikitich is most probably based on Vladimir's uncle - however, there are 7 warriors of the same name in annals...;
Alexander 'Alesha' Popovitch, afair, also lived at 12th century & became famous for declaring that it's wrong for Russian warriors to fight each other serving local knyaz & far better for all to fight common enemies serving Veliky Knyaz of Kiev (who was at the time formally considered a head of state - though most times he didn't even bother to try to order local knyaz...);
Bogatyr Zhydovin ("The Jew") is probably based on Khazar Kaganate's warriors - & so his prototypes may be placed at 9th-10th century - or else this figure appeared in bylinas much later, probably in 15th-17th century;
Volga / Volkh Vseslavich - the only one of bylinas' figure who can be considered a "mage" - may be based on Knyaz Oleg (Helgi) Veschij ("The Wise") - who was regent before Vladimir's father;
et cetera, ad nauseam - there are, as I've heard, even bylinas about Ermak Timofeevich - a completely historical figure who conquered Siberia at 16th century... So bylinas, as is the case with other legends, place together heroes and situations from different times and places & often use combination figures/situations.

...By the way. Knyaz "Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko" from these Bylinas is actually Vladimir I, around 960-1050, who baptized Russia.

By the way, would you be so kind as to give me title or link to any SCIENTIFIC work which states so. I've certainly seen it enough in popular books which so love simplify everything..

Not much is known about Russian paganism, thats true. Christian clergy did its best to wipe all traces of pagan traditions, and they succeeded.

Please, spare me Neopaganistic slogans. There are much simpler reasons: the Slavic people, unfortunately, had no written culture until appearance of Christian missionaries - and those were simply not interested in writing down things they considered to be just a bastardization of Hellenic paganism (while pagans did not want to learn anything from Greek monks). The truly common written culture formed in Novgorod only well after Christianization. While Ancient Greeks, as well as Scandinavians, had written culture during their heroic age, and Arabs hail from the region where written culture was relatively common even before their advent... See, no need to make "Public Enemies #1" of Christians and form a historical OGPU to fight them...
As for Simargl - I have noted this earlier, while the version of one figure becoming many, while popular afaik among modern occultists, and probably true in cases of Indian mythology, was not proved to actually occur in mythology of other peoples. I even suspect that true situation was often the other way around...

And why, I ask of thee, did Vans 'conquer' Bogarus? Logically, they were invited to rule!

Well, firstly, I've seen it before in some flavor text here...
Also about Rurik - he was certainly invited to try to make order in Novgorod melting-pot... from Staray Ladoga, which, for those who didn't know, is also deep inside Slavic lands (or Finnish - as population here was mixed). While appearance of above-mentioned Oleg in Kiev, as you'd already noted, certainly had all properties of military conquest...
To All on Vyedmas, etc.:
I think that etymology from a word meaning "to know" is actually quite common - even in English, "wizard" has common root with "wise". While "magic" is derived from title of Zoroastrian priests and wise-men... However, Finns were actually considered to be mighty sorcerers - certainly by their Scandinavian neighbors, & probably by medieval Rus as well - at least in Pushkin's fantasy poem "Ruslan and Ludmila" which was written in 19th century, sorcerer characters are either Finns, or of Arabo-Persian origin... And also actual traditions in this respect could be very close for Finns and East Slavs - especially as they lived close to each other for some hundreds of years.

[Kuritza]

Wrana said:
To Kuritza:

Well, you are just wrong: Ilya Murometz (probably Murmanin, or Morovlenin - such versions were also used)

There's no reason to believe Jew enthusiasts or these trying to alter an existing second name, which is Muromets, meaning (as you know) 'from Murom'. Occam's razor principle.
Of course he's a combination hero, but mostly he's based on one particular man, Ilya Chobotok, who was born in Murom as well.
And of course, I am well aware that their prototypes didnt meet. Just as the Thre Musketeers, btw. But in bylinas, they did - and I was speaking about cultural references Bugarus is probably based upon.

By the way, would you be so kind as to give me title or link to any SCIENTIFIC work which states so. I've certainly seen it enough in popular books which so love simplify everything..

Again, I was speaking about the 'mythical space', where all the popular heroes lived during one 'Age of Heroes' (also check the name of LA Bogarus theme). I know that there's absolutely no proof that Vladimir I is 'Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko'. Between you and me, I also find it very funny that Vladimir I was sanctified, seeing how he committed every known crime during his coming to power.

Please, spare me Neopaganistic slogans. There are much simpler reasons: the Slavic people, unfortunately, had no written culture until appearance of Christian missionaries - and those were simply not interested in writing down things they considered to be just a bastardization of Hellenic paganism

Spare me your suspicions as well. I'm absolutely indifferent towards both Orthodox and Neo-pagans. While what you say is true, Church did oppose Paganism in Russia, and quite actively. Why do you think there are no statues in Orthodox churches? Out of fear that these might be assotiated with idols. Etc, etc - while Christianity was surely embraced quite freely, it had to rival Paganism, and rivalry was fierce.

[Wrana]

There's no reason to believe Jew enthusiasts or these trying to alter an existing second name, which is Muromets, meaning (as you know) 'from Murom'. Occam's razor principle.

Well, he was somewhat drunk at the time, and also a building engineer by profession... It just illustrates how much we actually know.

But in bylinas, they did - and I was speaking about cultural references Bugarus is probably based upon.

Well, in this case, sorry. But you didn't specify this clearly.
Also, I would better like "Age of Heroes" as Vanarus - i.e., Medium Era. While in later period I'd prefer (relatively) disciplined Tsar's army, with Strelets & Oprichniks (by the way, the latter are almost only possible candidates for national non-summoned sacred troops! )
As for Vladimir (and he shouldn't be used with numerable, being a Kiev Knyaz - the numbers began only from Moscow dynasty - as Tsar Alexander 1st's case clearly illustrates, Alexander Nevsky's being a Veliky Knyaz and father of the founder of the Moscow line) - well, Constantine the Great of Byzantium was hardly better, but also "equal to apostles"

I'm absolutely indifferent towards both Orthodox and Neo-pagans. While what you say is true, Church did oppose Paganism in Russia, and quite actively. Why do you think there are no statues in Orthodox churches? Out of fear that these might be assotiated with idols.

Glad to hear - the latter can be found in quite surprising places!
Yes, I know that there was afierce struggle between Orthodox Christianity and paganism - it just doesn't explain most facts. AS for statues - I'd sooner think that a fact that there ARE ones in Catholic temples could be more close to a real reason...

[Wrana]

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