Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)

[kasnavada]

What is a exploit ? It's using something that doesn't work as intended. Therefore, if something you use doesn't work as intended (it could be important or not, game breaking or not, counterable or not, usable by all or none... it doesn't matter), you are exploiting the game mechanics. That is the definition of cheating.

The problem would then be : "how do you know that this or this is intended ?". Basically, asking the devs what they think of that or that mechanism when you have a problem with it. Then until they fix the problem, it is put on a bug list. Once again, the definition of a bug is "something that is not working as intended". Whether the change is important or not, usable by all or none, game breaking or not, counterable or therefore does not matter.

In the current case, the problem comes from the community that has accepted some exploits as "normal occurences" and do everything in their power so their vision of the game to remain the same, instead of respecting the dev's wishes and playing their game. When a possible large issue comes, those people that have come to rely on those exploits generalize their situations and conveniently forget that the reason why exploits exists isn't because this or that combo is game-breaking, but because after seeing all aspects that players found about a spell, the devs decided that some of them were not what the game should be.

The last problem is the bug list : for some, it's to show that it's not to be exploited, and others, it's a tool that is used to show what combos should be abused before the next patch comes. Again, the same communities clash : it's not about min-maxer, not roleplaying. It's about what you believe is the limit of what should be used in a game. Some believe that everything that currently is in the game is 'fair game', and the other one believes that everything on the bug list should be treated as if it were already out of the game. You can still be a min-maxer or a roleplayer in either case. The problem, and the clash comes when the first community uses one thing on the bug list on a player from the second community, because it gives him an advantage that he cannot countered.

That is another question that I think would have given pretty interesting results too, but before this thread was made (now everyone is worked up, no one's fault !) :
"The bug list is :
A) stuff that will be removed from the game, it's fine to use it,
B) stuff that will be removed from the game, it's fine to use it the one with low importance (everything not of a major or medium status),
C) stuff that will be removed from the game, it's should be considered as if they were our of the game already.
D) Obi-wan kenobi."

[quantum_mechani]

kasnavada said:
you are exploiting the game mechanics. That is the definition of cheating.

Exploiting just means taking advantage of... and taking advantage of the game mechanics is what you are doing every time you attempt any strategy. Defining cheating as *not using* the game mechanics might be better (i.e., hacking to add gems from nowhere).

[kasnavada]

Exploiting :
1. The act of utilizing something for any purpose. In this case, exploit is a synonym for use.
2. The act of utilizing something in an unjust, cruel or selfish manner for one's own advantage.

I used exploit with its second meaning, and in that case it means cheating. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough. I would have used "used" if I meant just using the game mechanics.

EDIT :
Defining cheating as "not using the game mechanics" is wrong in my opinion. Because a bug often is a game mechanic that can currently be used.

[quantum_mechani]

kasnavada said:
EDIT :
Defining cheating as "not using the game mechanics" is wrong in my opinion. Because a bug often is a game mechanic that can currently be used.

I think we have pretty much reached the very root of the issue. I (and I think many of the other people in this thread), would not call making use of a bug 'cheating', per se. I would draw a firm line between someone using some external method to alter the game files (i.e., hacking), and someone simply using the interface in possibly unintended ways. The latter can certainly be undesirable behavior in some cases, but it really is a whole different issue from cheating.

[HoneyBadger]

Hacking is a wrong that goes beyond the responsibility of the Devs to make right. Exploiting a known bug only occurs because the bug is there to be exploited in the first place. That's not to say that the Devs should be blamed, they aren't gods-they just create them and Dominions already has an amazingly (expecially considering that it's apparently such a near-infinite hydra of a beast) tight code. It's definitely the lesser of two evils though. I'd compare hacking to a mortal sin, whereas exploitation is simply invoking a social gaffe.

[kasnavada]

What I meant with a little more text :

The last problem is the bug list : for some, it's to show that it's not to be exploited, and others, it's a tool that is used to show what combos should be abused before the next patch comes. Again, the same communities clash : it's not about min-maxer, not roleplaying. It's about what you believe is the limit of what should be used in a game. Some believe that everything that currently is in the game is 'fair game', and the other one believes that everything on the bug list should be treated as if it were already out of the game. You can still be a min-maxer or a roleplayer in either case. The problem, and the clash comes when the first community uses one thing on the bug list on a player from the second community, because it gives him an advantage that he cannot countered.

EDIT :
The reason I'm from the second community is :
A game is not my game. It's something that comes out of the imagination of someone or a group of people, and that they decide to put at our disposal to let us have fun (and for them to make money). I therefore think it is a show of respect for them to play the game as they intend it to be. Some of what min-maxing finds out may not have been predicted, that's the reason people should ask devs whether a "feature" that seems unintended is a bug or not.

Once the decision is made (there goes definition of a bug again), if it is decided to be a bug, I will therefore not use it I know of it, to respect the game creator's wish about the game until it's corrected.