NLAW

[Mobhack]

Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns.

However, a second ATGM shot opportunity will have less time remaining in a move since the first one took up 20-30 seconds - so is generally less likely to hit (though a shot at a disabled target may still get a high %age). And a second shot in a row from the same spot is more likely to be spotted and avoided, and/or return fire made at the launcher before the missile impacts.

It's better to leave any second ATGM shot opportunity (if you shot in your phase) for the opfire phase IMHO. 1 ready shot is a guaranteed opfire opportunity - a launcher on 0 opportunities may well not fire opfire, if low experience.

I generally prefer to leave my ATGM on a filter for MBT type targets, especially if the enemy is coming at me, and so any with 2 shot opportunities will be guaranteed to fire twice in opfires.

Cheers
Andy

[Zipuli]

"Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns."

And this is to represent that the firer doesn't need to guess the range to the target, right? The 1-2-3 is there (especially seen with low RF units) to "simulate" the firer getting the range correct with the first few rounds? If so, it could be good to remove the 1-2-3 shot ladder from NLAW's weapon type, because it has no trajectory and the range (20-600m) has no relevance in hit %? Or add another weapon type (anti tank non guided missile, top-attack? sounds fun)?

Zip

[Mobhack]

And laser range finders, if inside 2xrange in our games (not the original code) use a 1-2 ladder (they ignore the first stage).

Giving an NLAW a laser RF would therefore reflect the guidance, but as Don pointed out, if you give an infantry team one then all weapons in the unit get the benefits. Also an increase in FC (to allow for moving targets) - ditto, the weapons of the squad would benefit. Which is really why they were ATGM when first done.

Making weapon accuracy say, 255 (max for a byte) might help - but the accuracy to hit will still probably be pulled down quite a bit if fired at > 1/2 weapon range due to the way the code works. Try it as an experiment (It may make them rather more expensive when run through the Cost Calc though!). But there may be a value that ups the to-hit reasonably noticeably, while not adding to cost too drastically (50)?.

Cheers
Andy

[Zipuli]

Ah OK... this clarifies much!

So hopefully in next patch you have taken this into account, and NLAW (+ all other future weapons of similar kind, if any are coming?) would be the sort of "semi-ATGM" that it is - so no 1-2-3 nor 1-2 ladder, no way for vehicles to use VIRSS to block the missile (being unguided and flying to the predicted point anyways, vision blocked or not)? And also not as accurate as real ATGMs as with NLAW once the missile leaves the tube, any evasive action (intentional or unintentional) can ruin the shot (maybe targets can use evasion like with ATGMs, but with a lot smaller chance, as the range is so short, that you really need to see the launch and have reflexes of a cat )

At the moment it seems that it's still best to use NLAW as TA-ATGM with high accuracy rating, or to add LRF and FC to the team (this is what I have currently, and it boosts the team's cost from ~30 to ~100, which is not bad thing at all considering the cost of the weapon in real life vs. older rechoilles -weapons) and have the unpleasant side effect of super-accurate small arms (not a big deal anyways)... otherwise, as it is now, the weapon is quite useless (because it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn), even with the very high penetration value (100)...

Zip

[DRG]

Zipuli said:otherwise, as it is now, the weapon is quite useless (because it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn), even with the very high penetration value (100)...

Zip

It's always a treat dealing with these sweeping generalizations about how the game operates.

I ran one test were 9 shots from that weapon resulted in 5 kills under "combat" conditions ( ie NOT a static test with the tanks lined up nice and neat ) and under "combat conditions", in reality or in the game, a 55% shot to kill ratio is hardly ..."it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn" .

The second test, also under game "combat conditions", had 40 missle launches and 24 hits which resulted in 22 kills. That's a 60% shot to hit ratio and, once again, as in the first test, a 55% shot to kill ratio.....all under "combat condtions" and once again this is hardly ...."it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn".

Is it ?

And all that is with the stock weapon we have in the the game now and fired at various ranges. Nothing altered, nothing changed from normal.

Don

[Zipuli]

Yes, I generalized, but only because these are the results I am getting... "Quite useless" is of course slight exaggeration on my part, as anything that can eventually kill a tank is not useless in this game. But that's how it seems when platoon of 4 patrols (4 missiles each) are missing average 3 shots out of 5, because of switching targets on enemy turn and always "resetting" the 1-2-3 ladder mentioned above. But my point still remains: NLAW team with or without a LRF should be equally accurate against stationary targets at any range (no 1-2-3 ladder), something that is currently not the case...

What range was your above test(s) on? As in all my tests with the default stats I get ~35% hit chance, and this is to ranges 400-600 usually. With same range and LRF I get almost double the %, and when adding a FC rating (as the weapon system has a FC to calculate lead) the % doesn't drop a lot when the targets move (though still more than with ATGMs as I think it should be...) If I understood correctly from Andy's post, firing to ranges under 300m should up the hit % a lot (max 600).

Zip

[DRG]

First. I told you what the ranges were in my post "fired at various ranges" and that is everything from Max range to point blank. I also told you these were combat conditions not static tests so terrain , smoke and a number of other factors come into play

the "hit chance" you are reading causes more aggravation that it's worth and I would be quite happy to rip it right out and leave everyone guessing and that goes for the "ready" "Pinned" "Retreating" and "Routed" reports as well .

That is the initial, unadjusted hit chance before experience, morale and suppression and a host of other factors are taken into account and if you go back and read what Andy wrote on the first line you will find he said "Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns."