NLAW

[Mobhack]

And laser range finders, if inside 2xrange in our games (not the original code) use a 1-2 ladder (they ignore the first stage).

Giving an NLAW a laser RF would therefore reflect the guidance, but as Don pointed out, if you give an infantry team one then all weapons in the unit get the benefits. Also an increase in FC (to allow for moving targets) - ditto, the weapons of the squad would benefit. Which is really why they were ATGM when first done.

Making weapon accuracy say, 255 (max for a byte) might help - but the accuracy to hit will still probably be pulled down quite a bit if fired at > 1/2 weapon range due to the way the code works. Try it as an experiment (It may make them rather more expensive when run through the Cost Calc though!). But there may be a value that ups the to-hit reasonably noticeably, while not adding to cost too drastically (50)?.

Cheers
Andy

[Zipuli]

Ah OK... this clarifies much!

So hopefully in next patch you have taken this into account, and NLAW (+ all other future weapons of similar kind, if any are coming?) would be the sort of "semi-ATGM" that it is - so no 1-2-3 nor 1-2 ladder, no way for vehicles to use VIRSS to block the missile (being unguided and flying to the predicted point anyways, vision blocked or not)? And also not as accurate as real ATGMs as with NLAW once the missile leaves the tube, any evasive action (intentional or unintentional) can ruin the shot (maybe targets can use evasion like with ATGMs, but with a lot smaller chance, as the range is so short, that you really need to see the launch and have reflexes of a cat )

At the moment it seems that it's still best to use NLAW as TA-ATGM with high accuracy rating, or to add LRF and FC to the team (this is what I have currently, and it boosts the team's cost from ~30 to ~100, which is not bad thing at all considering the cost of the weapon in real life vs. older rechoilles -weapons) and have the unpleasant side effect of super-accurate small arms (not a big deal anyways)... otherwise, as it is now, the weapon is quite useless (because it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn), even with the very high penetration value (100)...

Zip

[DRG]

Zipuli said:otherwise, as it is now, the weapon is quite useless (because it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn), even with the very high penetration value (100)...

Zip

It's always a treat dealing with these sweeping generalizations about how the game operates.

I ran one test were 9 shots from that weapon resulted in 5 kills under "combat" conditions ( ie NOT a static test with the tanks lined up nice and neat ) and under "combat conditions", in reality or in the game, a 55% shot to kill ratio is hardly ..."it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn" .

The second test, also under game "combat conditions", had 40 missle launches and 24 hits which resulted in 22 kills. That's a 60% shot to hit ratio and, once again, as in the first test, a 55% shot to kill ratio.....all under "combat condtions" and once again this is hardly ...."it doesn't hit the broad side of a barn".

Is it ?

And all that is with the stock weapon we have in the the game now and fired at various ranges. Nothing altered, nothing changed from normal.

Don

[Zipuli]

Yes, I generalized, but only because these are the results I am getting... "Quite useless" is of course slight exaggeration on my part, as anything that can eventually kill a tank is not useless in this game. But that's how it seems when platoon of 4 patrols (4 missiles each) are missing average 3 shots out of 5, because of switching targets on enemy turn and always "resetting" the 1-2-3 ladder mentioned above. But my point still remains: NLAW team with or without a LRF should be equally accurate against stationary targets at any range (no 1-2-3 ladder), something that is currently not the case...

What range was your above test(s) on? As in all my tests with the default stats I get ~35% hit chance, and this is to ranges 400-600 usually. With same range and LRF I get almost double the %, and when adding a FC rating (as the weapon system has a FC to calculate lead) the % doesn't drop a lot when the targets move (though still more than with ATGMs as I think it should be...) If I understood correctly from Andy's post, firing to ranges under 300m should up the hit % a lot (max 600).

Zip

[DRG]

First. I told you what the ranges were in my post "fired at various ranges" and that is everything from Max range to point blank. I also told you these were combat conditions not static tests so terrain , smoke and a number of other factors come into play

the "hit chance" you are reading causes more aggravation that it's worth and I would be quite happy to rip it right out and leave everyone guessing and that goes for the "ready" "Pinned" "Retreating" and "Routed" reports as well .

That is the initial, unadjusted hit chance before experience, morale and suppression and a host of other factors are taken into account and if you go back and read what Andy wrote on the first line you will find he said "Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns."

[Zipuli]

DRG said:
...and if you go back and read what Andy wrote on the first line you will find he said "Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns."

Yes, I did read Andy's message very carefully. OK, so missile has no 1-2-3 ladder. I did a following test:

Sweden VS. Russia
6 NLAW (MBT-LAW) VS 12 MT-LB
-all engagements are from static positions VS static MT-LBs. Results listed as follows:

Engagement number (firing team X/6):
Range to target in meters, terrain target is on (hit % given in lower screen when right clicking the target)
-(team suppression) hit chance, result of the shot

Fisrt engagement (team 1):
Range 150m, target on open field (35%)
-23 %, miss
-(3) 32 % miss
-(1) 53 % kill

Second engagement (team 2):
Range 150m, target on open field (hit % given when right clicking is 35%)
-23 % miss
-39 % hit

Third engagement (team 3):
Range 300m, target on open field (32%)
-35 % miss
-59 % miss
-88 % hit
-96 % kill

Fourth engagement (team 4):
Range 500m, target on open field (28%)
-28% miss, receives fire, 1 casualty
-22% (2) miss
-46% (1) miss

Fifth engagement (team 5):
Range 250m, target on open ground (56%)
-33 % miss
-67 % kill

Sixth engagement (team 5):
Range 450m, target on open ground (29%)
-29 % kill

Seventh engagement (team 5):
Range 300m, target on open ground (32%)
-29 % miss

Eight engagement (team 6):
Range 250m, target on open ground (58%)
-34 % miss
-70 % hit
-94 % kill

Ninth engagement (team 6):
Range 300m, target on open ground (33%)
-33 % kill

-------------------

So, with 6 teams firing total of 20 shots, I scored 9 hits, which is 45 % hit ratio, and scored 6 kills, which is 67 % kill ratio, and total lethality (6/20) is 30 %. And as you can see, these were semi "combat" situations, with enemy firing back, but I gave MT-LBs only because I didn't want my teams to get killed after first shot. And targets were not moving, so hit & should have been best possible.

OK, I am not interested in weapon effectiveness according to kill ratio of the missiles fired, nor the lethality of the individual missiles as of course each hit should not be a total kill.

What should be noted is the quite dramatic drop in first shot hit % when range goes above 300m. Something that does not happen with missiles, at least not that clearly). Also, when the targets were 150m away on field (if it has any cover value?) the hit % on first shot was really low (23%)!

But what I am trying to say here, is that the 1-2-3 ladder is CLEARLY visible. This is something I don't see when using ATGMs. And like both you and Andy say, missiles don't have 1-2-3 ladder, so I am questioning if weapon type 23 "Top Attack HEAT" is treated as a missile or not... What I understood from Andy's posts was that LRF has no effect on missiles.

But the same test with RF rating of 20 (LRF) added, I have following result

1, field (150m, 94%):
-99% kill
2, field (300m, 84%):
-84% kill
3, field (500m, 80%):
-80% kill
4, field (300m, 99%):
-73% kill
5, open (450m, 80%):
-73% miss
-80% kill
6, open (500m, 73%):
-73% miss
7, open (250m, 99%):
-88% kill
8, open (250m, 88%):
-97% kill
9, open (300m, 85%):
-85% miss

For this I used NLAW team with Finnish base stats, but Fin and Swe have both 75 as exp, fin has 75 morale, sweden 70. I believe this doesn't make much of a difference. What did do a huge difference, is that when the team "knows the range", hit % rockets sky high against the same static targets vs. when they "didn't know" the range. When using NLAW, range doesn't matter, just like with ATGMs. If the firer misses, it is not because he guessed the range wrong...

Zip

[Mobhack]

What should be noted is the quite dramatic drop in first shot hit % when range goes above 300m. Something that does not happen with missiles, at least not that clearly). Also, when the targets were 150m away on field (if it has any cover value?) the hit % on first shot was really low (23%)!

1) 300m just happens to be 1/2 or more max weapon range (12 hexes, 600m) - so accuracy drops off there somewhat for any non-missiles.

2) TA-HEAT is not an ATGM weapon - TA-ATGM would be.

3) Fields do provide some cover (esp for infantry) - the crops obscure vision like tall grass.

As I said before - the NLAW really needs to be in a new missile class of its own. (Or, the possibility for VIRSS and CIWS needs to be screwed right down for reaction to very close range missile shots - vehicle dodging is already difficult if the missile launch is from < 20 hexes/1000 yards). When I look at the code again for the next release around Xmas time, I'll have a look into these short-range semi-guided weapons.

cheers
Andy