Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)

[Gandalf Parker]

They still get a few. And granted it does work best in areas where you can move in and out of a players territory to avoid laying TOO exact a trail. Even in a players territory since it happens each turn, its still hard to gauge where the attack will occur next. The best tactic against it was to crank the PD in sporadic provinces in the area to try the level of being able to catch scouts.

Granted I havent tested this since the latest changes in maenads (I hate the new look) but it used to be that the berserker did have some balancing benefit against the autorout. On some random rolls it used to be that you could win. Sometimes both sides routed at the same time.

[thejeff]

Ok, I can see that. Against weak PD with archers or fliers, early hits could berserk a few maenads who might then beat the PD.

[DonCorazon]

I find it quite difficult to rate nations - there are too many variables.

1. I haven't come close to playing played every nation in MP and I think that is the real testing ground. Hard to imagine many people have played every nation in MP, given how long an MP game takes. But I suppose once you know how MP works you can study a nation's units and extrapolate as to how they will perform.

2. Some of those MP games have been with pros, some with noobs, others a mix. Doing well in a noob game may give you a false sense of confidence about how powerful your nation is.

3. A lot of how any game turns out will depend on pretender design, scales, finding indie mages, random events, diplomacy, a neighbor going AI, etc.

That said, the commentary on nation strength is quite interesting. My sense though is you can win with almost any nation using a mix of skill and luck as long as you have access to diverse magic. Magical diversity is the key as magic provides the tool box of counters, and counter-counters that help make the game fun and give it such a steep learning curve.

[Gandalf Parker]

I once posted a timeline something like this...
1) get Dominions, play the tutorial, play some solo games.
2) post that xxxxx nation is obviously way too powerful (ermor? ctis? ulm?)
3) play more nations and discover the misleading rock-paper-sissors balance of the nations
4) play all of the nations and discover that one of them kicks ***
5) post that nation xxxxx is way too powerful because you always win with it
6) try a multiplayer game and discover that everyone ended up with the same answer, but strangely with different nations. For some reason they play those other nations differently, and rather effectively.
7) eventually iron out the best stategies for you playing with your favorite nation. Back to kicking ***.
8) wander into a multiplayer game of an era different than you usually play, and lose badly
9) iron out the variables for your favorite nation in each era.
10) eventually discover that you really can kick *** with your favorite nations
11) stray into a multiplayer game of a totally different size or parameters
12) discover that map size, map styles, number of players, settings, etc all have quite abit to do with your ability to kick ***. SIGH and realize that it will take years more time for you to explore all of the possibilities

[Zeldor]

Gandalf Parker:

Well, no matter what you say some nations are overpowered. And devs are not doing much to change it. And that are not only nations, it is more about magic paths, huge domintion of astral, death and blood magic over other paths. Of course some people can win with MA Man against MA Arco, but chances are same like Liechtenstein beating Brasil in soccer.

[Kristoffer O]

The only nations I would agree are too powerful are LA R'lyeh and LA Ermor. They are the only nations that have game mechanics that alter the game progress in a game. Their very participation makes other players behave differently in order to cope. In the case of Ermor this bothers me less, since they are supposed to be a world threat and they are central to the development of the dominions series. R'lyeh is a bit of a bother since they share some game mechanics with Ermor, but has more options and diverse powers.

I will not consider a nation overpowered unless it can beat two other nations ganking up on the strong one. That is what MP is all about. It is the responsibility of the neighbors to know the main strengths and weaknesses of a nation. The forum, playtesting and in game diplomacy should give anyone the tools to evaluate a nation and make sure it is destroyed before it gets too successful.

I do understand that some nations are more powerful than others, but the nice thing about MP is that balance develops during the game. A nation that is unable to take advantage of game settings, map features, sites and such is too weak. A nation that is always successful regardless of game settings, map features, sites etc is probably too strong.

I do not consider MA Man too weak. Boring perhaps, but not weak.

There are more than fifty nations in the game. Of course some are more powerful. Since we have ordinary day jobs, and divert most of our developing time to our other project there will obviously not be changes to every nation (since every nation needs changes).

I do get annoyed when you say we don't do much to change it. You have probably reduced the chances of having MA Man getting a fix. Machaka feels more interesting now.

Hmm, sorry about that Zeldor. It was not intended as an attack on you or Man, but I do actually dislike to work with nations when I remember people complaining about them. It gives me a sour feeling, and since I work with things that makes me happy I avoid working on nations which make me feel unhappy.

Things that makes me happy are when people say they like the feel and mood of a nation and that they feel that it is sad that it is not more strong in this department or that area. This gets me inspired and makes me think more about the nation instead of less, and will probably have the result that I will add stuff.

A discussion on how cool KoA are will likely make me feel that they are cool, look at them and think that they are too uncool in the game. A discussion where someone complains about the fact that they cannot move about and are underpowered compared to dada.. will just make me leave the discussion and look at a thread talking about how cool bane spiders are, even if they can only be recruited at home. I will then silently agree and think about what can be done to the banespiders, including new graphics and a set of new and cooler powers to compensate.

Sorry about the rant. I had too much coffe last night and woke up after four hours of bad sleep.

[Zeldor]

Kristoffer O:

Yeah, Machaka! I knew you are secreatly working on EA and LA version.

I simply made really bad idea of playing MA Man in MP some time ago. And I like complaining too

I will try to limit that or find a way to do it in more sublte way

Oh, there is just one really tiny thing you could look at - cost of Mind Hunt

[MaxWilson]

Kristoffer O said:
Since we have ordinary day jobs, and divert most of our developing time to our other project

Every time you mention this I get excited.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Kristoffer O said:
...A discussion on how cool KoA are will likely make me feel that they are cool, look at them and think that they are too uncool in the game ... and look at a thread talking about how cool bane spiders are, even if they can only be recruited at home. I will then silently agree and think about what can be done to the banespiders, including new graphics and a set of new and cooler powers to compensate.

I do love you sir.

I will bear well in mind that you are more responsive to positive critique, and work to inspire you on any problem areas that I may discover in my ceaseless analysis of this incredible world and game which has been miraculously spun for us to enjoy.

I think it's an important and valuable part of this community, that our gods in fact retain their mortality, and meddle in the affairs of men, and sometimes..... but sometimes, hear our prayers. <3

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:Since we have ordinary day jobs, and divert most of our developing time to our other project

Excellent!

This should be your no. 1 priority, you would not believe how eager I am to part with my cash for another Illwinter product. I really hope its every bit as addictive, fun, enjoyable as dominions.

Really, we have had loads of patches giving us huge amounts of extras to Dom3. Just work on Dom3 when you are burned out from doing your other, 'project' and of course school work etc... that you do.

I agree with everything you say in your rant, Ma Man thematically is a excellent nation, its based on Robert Jordans books I believe. I like the nation, even if it does not translate to a powerful Dom3 MP nation. The bards are a great unit and overall Ma Man only needs a few slight changes to its national units to be a great nation.

But like I said new game, new game, new game....