Stug AAMG's???

[StugIIIAusfG]

Ok, in that other topic the guy had not seen any stug's armed whit a co-axial mg. Here is one stug whit the early mantlet armed whit a co-axial MG, but this feature was more common whit the later model saukopf mantlets.



See the hole in the upper right corner of the gun mantlet? Thats where the CMG shoot's from.
LINK: http://www.andreaslarka.net/ps531048/ps531048.html

So we could have some stug III's in the game whit a CMG.

Secondly there is speak of shielded AAMG's... And then there is talk that the mg could be attached ontop the plate to act as an AAMG?

This makes no sence since the upper attachement still is limited in fire arch and the suplied MG-34 or MG-42 LMG did not have AA sights AFAIK. Never seen a photo of it either.

What I have seen is that when the MG was attached ontop of the plate it was used to fire when the rest of the vehicle was hull down or to enable shooting in a more steep angle down. For example when shooting down from a hill or mountain top. In addition since the loader was more exposed to enemy fire in that position it was not wery safe. Never heard of it beign used for AA fire.


So my suggestions:

1. Change all stugIII AAMG's to BMG's. Or LMG's whichever is better in game code.

2. Add some late model G stug whit a CMG. They also had the loaders shield MG so two mg's for some of those late stug III G's.


Bye!

[narwan]

Such a change has a disadvantage that's bigger than the 'ailment' cured, IMO. When a unit is 'buttoned', the aamg becomes inoperable as no one is outside the vehicle to fire it. So changing these machineguns to another type would keep them operative when the Stug is buttoned.

So either option would have an 'unrealistic' side effect. I think the current setup is the best of the two options.

[StugIIIAusfG]

narwan said:
Such a change has a disadvantage that's bigger than the 'ailment' cured, IMO. When a unit is 'buttoned', the aamg becomes inoperable as no one is outside the vehicle to fire it. So changing these machineguns to another type would keep them operative when the Stug is buttoned.

So either option would have an 'unrealistic' side effect. I think the current setup is the best of the two options.

Fair enough.

However whatabout the late model StugIII's whit the remote mount? Those were usable when the vehicle is buttoned up. The remote mount was implemented from spring 1944 onwards...

[cbo]

I dont now what is actually in the game currently, as I dont play much these days, but with regards to what weaponry was carried in StuGs aside from the main gun, I suggest the following:

1. Ausf. A - D: These do not appear to have carried any machinegun, but had mountings for two submachineguns on the rear bulkhead in the fighting compartment.

2. Starting with Ausf. E, which was produced from September 1941, they carried a loose MG34 and 7 drum-magazines.

3. Ausf. Gs produced from December 1942 got the folding MG shield in front of the loaders position. The shield had two mounts for the MG34. One in the hole in the shield for fire against ground targets, another one on top of the shield for use against aircraft. It allowed the gun to be pointed skywards, but could only cover the forward arch (and would probably have been pretty useless against aircraft).

4. Beginning April 1944, the shield was being replaced by the remote-control mount, allowing the gun to be fired by the loader from cover. The limited anti-aircraft capability was lost, but the gun was now in a fixed mount and was aimed by a periscope with 3x enlargement.

5. Beginning June 1944 for vehicles with the welded gun-mantlet and October 1944 for vehicles with the cast gun-mantlet, a coax-MG was added.

cbo

[PanzerBob]

Insofar as the B to D's having no MG. I disagree; while they were not fitted for one from the factory crews were quick to realize without a MG they had no close in defence. Crews carried a MG34 LMG, which was used for such work. This very likely even meant A's fighting later on had them on board as well, but I can find no reference to prove this, maybe all A's destroyed by then or out of service.

Can I get a confirmation AAMG's only fire when vehicles are not buttoned up IN THE GAME?

[TreadHead]

Fuel for the discussion on both the AAMG and the Finnish StuG with a coaxial MG:

Looking in "Sturm & Drang No.2, StuG III", Japan, 1990, pages 88-89 have three photos of a StuG III Ausf G with a MG-42 in the bracket mount on the top of the shield. The MG-42 has the AA ring sight. Who knows how the crew obtained it, but from a practical standpoint, you've probably got about a 60-degree wide field of fire (for what it's worth, it's better than the 20-degree arc for the main gun ). The same book on page 90 has a photo of a pair of Stug III’s both with a MG-34 on top of the shield with an AA ring sight, and page 112-113 has a large two-page photo of a single StuG also with an AA ring sight configured MG-34.

In the game, as far as the external MG being treated as an AAMG versus BMG, making it an AAMG subjects the crew to being unbuttoned to be able to use it, which would be correct. (I tested that and when buttoned, the shots for the AAMG on a StuG dropped to zero). It also provides use as an AAMG as it seems to have been needed in that role, especially later in the war. To the negative, I believe that in the game as an AAMG it permits 360-degree use, and the code might be generous on the effectiveness. But, treating it as an AAMG would seem to be the reasonable compromise in terms of how the game can handle an unusual arrangement like this.

From a practical standpoint in the game, the only time when the 360-degree capability should be an issue would be if the vehicle was immobilized. Otherwise, the icon swings around to face the target anyway, right? (Although, I just ran a quick test where I immobilized a StuG, and then tried to use area fire selecting the AAMG and it would not fire outside the frontal arc.)

Also noticeable in the page 90 photo is that the mantlet of the first vehicle appears to have the same box-style mantlet with a coaxial MG as the one on the StuG at the Finnish museum, but otherwise does not have the hybrid composition of early and late components. The trailing StuG in the photo appears to have the Topfblende mantlet (Saukopf).

On the deal about coaxial MG, per http://afvdb.50megs.com/germany/stug3.html “A coaxial machine gun port was added to the welded gun mantlet starting in June 1944, and the cast mantlet in October of that year.” The best example of one of these I’ve found is the one at the Panzermuseum Munster: http://www.panzermuseum.com/stug-iii...d-vehicle.html Crank up the volume on the video on this page!

Some game relevant features & dates for the StuG III:

Mid Production – September 1943 – August 1944
> Saukopfblend (Cast gun mantlet) fitted to Alkett vehicles (Nov 43)
> Rundumsfeuer (remote controlled MG) mount installed in superstructure roof (Mar 44). Due to shortages of mounts, StuGs produced for several months with armour disc bolted over the hole.
> Nahverteidigungswaffe (Close defence weapon) fitted in superstructure roof (May 44). Due to a shortage of weapons until Oct 44, few Nahverteidigungswaffe fitted, so the hole was covered by an armour disc secured by bolts.
> Block gun mantlet with coaxial MG introduced (June 44)

Late Production – September 1944 – April 1945
> Saukopfblend with coaxial MG introduced (Oct 44)

As a side note, it was not uncommon for older variants returned for repairs to be re-equipped with parts from newer variants creating completely non-standard variants.

Here's something strange... I was using the StuG 276 scenarios 141 thru 147 for testing, and noticed that the StuG's in those scenarios have both the AAMG and a BMG in the game and when you right click on the unit for details. However when you select "Information" it does not show the BMG, just the main gun and the AAMG. Looking though MobHack, the only StuG I saw with a BMG was Unit 873 Stug IIIf.

[hoplitis]

TreadHead said:
...
Here's something strange... I was using the StuG 276 scenarios 141 thru 147 for testing, and noticed that the StuG's in those scenarios have both the AAMG and a BMG in the game and when you right click on the unit for details. However when you select "Information" it does not show the BMG, just the main gun and the AAMG. Looking though MobHack, the only StuG I saw with a BMG was Unit 873 Stug IIIf.

It is possible to change unit data while designing a scenario. Weapons and ammoloads included. These changes are stored in the scenario. The info screens refer directly to the OOB which remain unchanged by the above mentioned data change. On the other hand the scenario unit data (right click on unit - 1st screen)must reflect these changes.

[cbo]

PanzerBob said:
Insofar as the B to D's having no MG. I disagree; while they were not fitted for one from the factory crews were quick to realize without a MG they had no close in defence. Crews carried a MG34 LMG, which was used for such work.

Let me clarify: I was referring to the point in time when provisions were provided from factory for an MG in StuG, and that started with the Ausf. E, which had brackets for the gun as well as an ammo-box for the ammunition. Production of that vehicle began in September 1941.

It appears, however, that StuG crews were authorized to carry and MG34 with 600 rounds of ammunition by an order of June 7th 1941.

One could perhaps argue, that they did so even before that, but to make that argument, you would have to find some references to the fact. I dont think I have any at hand.

The other question to raise is of course whether such a loose weapon should even be part of the vehicles in-game weaponry? We know that tank and StuG crews carried submachineguns, pistols and handgrenades and that they used them on occasion, firing out of machinegun ports or open hatches. But such weaponry is not portrayed in the game. The StuG MG34 is the same thing, at least until the shield was provided with its somewhat rudimentary MG mount.

cbo