Countering Master Enslave...

[Psycho]

Cast a couple Ghost riders on the army. That will trigger the mages to use gems.

[Coldshard]

So the primary, and just about only, defense against master enslave is to proactively and send spells and troops out to kill any opposing mage who can case the spell?

[Atreidi]

OK, lets make up a scenario. Lets say you know an astral mage level 10 that's equiped with 20 astral gems is going to attack one of your provinces that is surrounded by sea. You also know that hes got a pretty big army and that he's got all the intentions of casting master enslave on one of your biggest army. What will you do?

It usually takes what 1 or 2 turns for the astral mage to cast the master enslave spell? That gives you only 1 or 2 turns to kill him before he does... That is not enough time even with flying units. Maybe if the astral mage was alone and you had flying units.... even then, he could cast it before he is dead...

I've sent a lonely astral mage to cast Master Enslave against a Huge army and converted most of them. and won the battle and gained 40+ units. OUCH.

[MaxWilson]

Coldshard said:
So the primary, and just about only, defense against master enslave is to proactively and send spells and troops out to kill any opposing mage who can case the spell?

You've been given two other counters that don't involve killing the enemy mage:

1.) Master Enslave right back. He'll take your army (much of it), you'll take (much of) it back, along with his army (much of it). Hence, "He Who Master Enslaves Last, Master Enslaves Best."

2.) Use Anti-Magic/Army of Lead to protect your army. Will of the Fates might work here, I'm not really sure if luck helps against Enslave Mind but it might.

Or, you could use armies that aren't vulnerable to Master Enslave, e.g. hordes of undead chaff or magic beings like fairies or high-MR units.

-Max

[Coldshard]

MaxWilson said:

You've been given two other counters that don't involve killing the enemy mage:

1.) Master Enslave right back. He'll take your army (much of it), you'll take (much of) it back, along with his army (much of it). Hence, "He Who Master Enslaves Last, Master Enslaves Best."

2.) Use Anti-Magic/Army of Lead to protect your army. Will of the Fates might work here, I'm not really sure if luck helps against Enslave Mind but it might.

Or, you could use armies that aren't vulnerable to Master Enslave, e.g. hordes of undead chaff or magic beings like fairies or high-MR units.

-Max

I don't see how your response negates my 'primary, and just about only, defense against..'

Master enslaving back requires having master enslave setup. The right kind of caster, gems in place, and likely a lot of gear to push it along. There is also a chance that the caster you have set up to master enslave in return gets enslaved by the first one.. And then, of course, the enemy might be set up for multiple master enslave castings.

Is there a way to have antimagic or army of lead cast before defenders get a chance to cast spells? If not then it doesn't sound all that helpful, by the time they get put up it is already too late.

An entire army that isnt effected by it is nice, but not everyone has good access to that. Plus, those other units have their own set of limitations.. such as if the commanders controlling them get enslaved...

It is definitely a tough spell. I'm guessing it is just another bit that says the farther you get in the game the less focus there is on big armies.

[MaxWilson]

Coldshard said:
I don't see how your response negates my 'primary, and just about only, defense against... [Master Enslave is to proactively kill the mage casting it]'

You're going to have to do SOMETHING in response to Master Enslave, and if using immune armies and casting counterspells doesn't work for you I'm not sure what you were looking for. Proactively killing off enemy mages before they can cast is ALWAYS the best defense against any spell. You've dismissed the notion of using armies that aren't vulnerable to Master Enslave, and aren't happy with the idea of counterspells, so what does that leave?

Edit:Mage commanders will usually not be Master Enslaved, by the way. Most mages have MR 15-17, so they'll be resisting at 19-21 which is something like a 3-5% failure rate.

-Max

[Atreidi]

MaxWilson said:

You're going to have to do SOMETHING in response to Master Enslave, and if using immune armies and casting counterspells doesn't work for you I'm not sure what you were looking for. Proactively killing off enemy mages before they can cast is ALWAYS the best defense against any spell. You've dismissed the notion of using armies that aren't vulnerable to Master Enslave, and aren't happy with the idea of counterspells, so what does that leave?

-Max

True that.

[Coldshard]

MaxWilson said:
You're going to have to do SOMETHING in response to Master Enslave...

I agree... but then, doesnt everyone?

MaxWilson said:
...if using immune armies and casting counterspells doesn't work for you I'm not sure what you were looking for.

Counterspells? The only spells mentioned either rely on a preemptive strike or are can be too late to do much..

MaxWilson said:Proactively killing off enemy mages before they can cast is ALWAYS the best defense against any spell.

Which is why I dont like that answer, actually

MaxWilson said:You've dismissed the notion of using armies that aren't vulnerable to Master Enslave, and aren't happy with the idea of counterspells, so what does that leave?

I didnt dismiss the notion of armies that are invulnerable to the spell.. I just pointed out that such armies arent always easy to come by and typically have their own doom spell (such as undead mastery).

The counterspells, assuming we are talking about preemptive strike spells and antimagic/army of lead, are either a ubiquitous answer to the problem (kills the mages before they even get into combat) or potentially too late to matter. Were there other counterspells mentioned?

MaxWilson said:
Edit:Mage commanders will usually not be Master Enslaved, by the way. Most mages have MR 15-17, so they'll be resisting at 19-21 which is something like a 3-5% failure rate.

-Max

3-5% assuming no extra levels in the appropriate path and no penetration items (although the opposing mage might have enough astral path to get a bonus as well). A ring of wizardry and sorcery along with a rune smasher and maybe even a crystal shield arent all that hard, a few communion buddies can top it off nicely.. I actually had a game recently where I cast master enslave with a total penetration of +10. Get lucky and enslave the enemy enslaver, grab a few of their communion buddies so that if they do manage to pull off one it has a lesser chance of success (especially after your newly larger army just got antimagic/army of lead), and possibly even have their own former troops kill them (or force the AI to decide casting some other spell is better at the moment, like astral shield ).

It gets more complicated when magic items on the defenders are taken into account though. They might have defensive items to help (such as antimagic amulet) but that typically means that they are missing offensive items to power their own spells.

It is an incredibly potent option. It isnt that I am discounting all options for countering it, I am merely saying that it is so potent that if you are unable to do the proactive measures then an opponent making the most of this option could force you to change your entire playing strategy... just from the 'threat' of it being cast. That is power!

[MaxWilson]

Coldshard said:
I didnt dismiss the notion of armies that are invulnerable to the spell.. I just pointed out that such armies arent always easy to come by and typically have their own doom spell (such as undead mastery).

The counterspells, assuming we are talking about preemptive strike spells and antimagic/army of lead, are either a ubiquitous answer to the problem (kills the mages before they even get into combat) or potentially too late to matter. Were there other counterspells mentioned?

What do you mean by "too late to matter"? Are you talking about defender advantage, i.e. Master Enslave on round 1 before the attacker can cast any counterspells? That issue is not unique to Master Enslave. Fog Warriors + Rain of Stones x4 works the same way. Otherwise, Antimagic is a counterspell. It boosts the total resistance roll to +8. Against +10 penetration that's still not going to save your normal troops, but high-MR troops (13-ish) aren't all that uncommon in Dominions. "Counterspell" in this sense means "mitigator," not "nullifier."

-Max

[thejeff]

Well, in the classic Master Enslave contest, he who goes second has some serious issues to contend with.

First, the defender can cast AntiMagic/Army of Lead to protect both his troops and your former troops, greatly weakening the effect of your Master Enslave.

Second, since his new troops are among your remaining troops (and mages) many of your mages will be attacked or in hand-to-hand and thus less likely to cast what was ordered.
Do enslaved troops attack the round they're enslaved? I think they do.

This applies less if it takes a round or two to get communioned up to Master Enslave level. Though even a communion can do it round 1 with a Matrix and a late acting caster.