So no Dominions 4?

[Leif_-]

Kraftwerk said:
So S&S that AMC only paid a million to put on at its numerous locations, will only appear on 1 maybe 2 screens where as ID4 that cost them maybe 5 million to put on at their locations, will get 4 to maybe even 8 screens.

Actually, theatres don't buy movies. The business model is more along the lines of the studio renting screens from the theatre in return for a (rather small) fraction of the ticket price. Then the theatre makes a significant part of its revenue from selling concessions.

That's a little besides the point, though, which is this: for works of art such as movies, music, computer games and similar, the price is not determined by the cost of production. Rather, the price is determined by the consumers and what they percieve the value is, and the budget for production is then determined from this. This makes sense, because -- unlike physical products -- the worth of the product to the individual consumer is not directly linked to the cost of production. It doesn't matter if a game cost hundreds of millions to make: if the game is good it's good, if it's ****e, it's ****e, regardless of cost.

Your example is actually proof of what im saying. If you charge 8 dollars for something, people are more inclined to pay for it than if you charge 60 for it.

True for widgets and nails. Not true for "soft" areas such as entertainment or fashion. For some types of products (surprisingly many, in fact), lowering the price can be a kiss of death, resulting in fewer sales. There's a reason why pepole buy poor $50 games from the shelf rather than good $15 games from the bargain bin: perceived value.

Bottom line, the price keeps people from buying it.

Sure, the (relative) high price leads to some people deciding not to buy it. That would be the true no matter what the price was, as long as it was over $0. Don't you think Shrapnel knows the basics[1] supply and demand curve, and how to find the optimum price point? Remember, the optimum price point is the point that maximises your profit, and not your units sold.

[1] Not to say simplistic

This isnt the first time this has come up over the years, and it wont be the last.

Carthago delenda est!

Weeds keep coming up repeatedly over the years too. That doesn't make them flowers.

The price hurts the community.

The evidence does not appear to support the statement.

Every month, someone shelfs this game. If there arent warm fresh bodies, eventually the community dies, and you end up like Master of Magic. A game people DL for free, a decade later, because the community dried up, where the developers could still be getting checks , and the community could still be actively creating mods and purchasing the game, and hopefully, providing an opportunity for a sequel.

If it's the price that hurts the community, how come the MoM community is still dead, despite people downloading it for free? Simple: It's not the price.

Seriously, if you guys arent going to make a dominions 4, why should i even convince friends of mine to purchase this game?

Because it's a good game that's fun to play? Would you be hesitant to recommend a good book or a movie, just because there might not be a sequel? No? Then why does it matter for a game?

So you can retire to florida? Put gas in your tank? Why should we pay new release price for a old game, when a current version isnt being worked on, wheres the money going?

If you buy an Elvis CD, where's that money going? Not towards any new Elvis recordings, that for sure. Does that mean your money is wasted? Of course not.

Here's how it works: You pay your money, you get the game, you play the game. If the game is good, you've got your money's worth. If the game isn't good, you haven't. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

A greedy publisher? Solid gold champagne glasses? For serious....why should you get far more than somethings worth.

See, that's just it. Dominions 3 is worth $55. Yes, it's more than some other games, but then Dominions 3 is better than those other games.

Of course, if you don't like Dominions 3, then the game won't be worth $55 to you. 'course, then it won't be worth $15 either, so that's not an argument. Overall, though, it seems most of the people who're likely to buy a turn based, rough-around-the-edges strategy games do think that Dominions 3 is worth the asking price.

What are you providing for the 15 more dollars your charging over the competition.

All of this And even more, that they haven't mentioned.

Simply put: they're better than the competition, the provide more than the competition and so they can charge more than the competition. Isn't economics grand?

[JimMorrison]

Leif_- said:
...If you buy an Elvis CD, where's that money going? Not towards any new Elvis recordings, that for sure. Does that mean your money is wasted? Of course not...

I dunno, throwing good money away to hear Elvis..... Could be a waste of money after all.

[Kraftwerk]

The MoM community is alive and kicking, theres multiple clones in the works, as well as mods and new strategy guides and a user improvement patch.

Games like Master of Magic, Jagged Alliance 2, that didnt receive much commercial success at the time, are now shining examples of how the pirate community actually helps the pc game community. Besides pc gaming being a for profit business, its also a part of history, and a community as a whole thats seperate, but equal, to the console gamer or board gamer community. A nod given to preservation of this community, as the galactic civs guys did by not using copy protection, or valves contribution of steam, have only helped their products fly off the shelves. Concern with art and customer satisfaction as a first and formost helps those products sell.

Games where the companies at the time either didnt market them correctly, or at all in some cases, that were quality pieces of work, have been resurrected by the warez and pirate communities not only as pieces of nostalgia (heck i think they still actually try and sell jagged alliance 2) but as new games with user created fix'it'up patches and sometimes, entire new campaigns, gamemodes, expansions, etc.

Now if the makers of these games had the insight companies like iD and epic had back then, to spend the money splattering cheap demo discs all over every electronics store in every major city, and allowed a mod community access to as much of the game as they needed to completely alter the gameplay, theyd have games that were commercial successes like Doom and Duke.

Those titles were developed on the cheap, in garages, just like this one.

There is nothing different in terms of quality between this, and doom, or hexen, or any other smashing commercial success.

The difference is availability, this isnt in stores, visibility, its an old game, it isnt being reviewed anymore, not alot you can do about that, especially if you dont actively seek out press, and lastly, cost, doom, cost you a few dollars for the first episode, and 30 dollars for the rest of the game, unless you had BBB access, you got the first episode free. Then you had the option eventually to purchase the box in stores (episodic content, multiple releases in various mediums?! omg they used ideas from the two largest commercial marketing successes in the entertainment industry, george lucas and everything starwars, how many versions of those movies are there? the fans just buy every one of them even tho they already have one, and this one adds like 4 new seconds of film, and valve, with the steam system for delivering episodic content.

The price, the marketing, the availability, its all the stone age with you guys.

[Leif_-]

Kraftwerk said:
The MoM community is alive and kicking,

Would Sir please make up Sir's mind? First the MoM community dried up because people weren't buying the game any more, and now it's alive and kicking because people aren't buying the game any more. You simply can't have it both ways. Real life isn't like Dominions: there's actually a limit to the good stuff.

Concern with art and customer satisfaction as a first and formost helps those products sell.

Dominions 3 is selling and selling well. The Dominions 3 community is alive and thriving. Those are the fact of the matter; they won't go away just because they're inconvenient to your argument.

The difference is availability, this isnt in stores, visibility, its an old game, it isnt being reviewed anymore,

E pur si muove. And yet it sells. Funny, that.

The price, the marketing, the availability, its all the stone age with you guys.

And yet it sells.

[Dragar]

Kraftwerk,

Agreed that Dom 3 will never be a mass market game without lower pricing, advertising, publicity, better production values etc. The thing is, with a game like this, it would unlikely be a big hit anyway, the learning curve is too great, it's too slow and not visual enough for a typical consumer.

Illwinter and shrapnel could put in a lot of time and money and get a cheaper, better produced game out to a lot of people, but would the increase in revenue cover the costs and the extra time? Remember that the Illwinter guys develop in their spare time. To hit the mainstream Dom 3 would need a major rework in terms of production, graphics and SP playability, and then a heap of promotional activity.

From their (and shrapnel's) point of view, a cheap to produce game is still pulling in decent revenues at moderate sales with high mark-up two years after release... what's not to like? It’s a nice cash cow building a loyal base while they develop their next product. If in the future they want to take it more seriously they can build Dom 4 and launch it, with a ready made community to test, troubleshoot, create map/scenario content and help drive it.

I'm also guessing that Illwinter get a larger piece of the pie than if they went through a major developer.

From Shrapnel's point of view its even sweeter - as their biggest selling product it must be giving them a lot of their new customers and developers, with follow through to other game sales.

Bigger isn't always more profitable, high margins on moderate sales with low cost is a perfectly acceptable business model.