Our beloved Pretenders!

[Tifone]

@ Wrana, thanks it seems doable to me too.

@Gandalf Parker,

Gandalf Parker said:
I like Lord of Night for Mictlan but its probably less thematic. I like the idea of a flying stealthy assassin titan.

To, me, using a titanic beast half-man half-bat to take down a single commander, seems like using a rifle for elephant hunting to kill a rabbit but I like its flavour so that's not a complain, just an ironic note

[Sombre]

Not if that single commander is a similarly sized monstrosity.


I think this thread and the new version of CBM go hand in hand - it really does boost the thematic but weak pretenders a whole lot. I like the Solar Disc for example and in CBM he's cheaper and better, with a nasty fireshield.

[Xietor]

I like the idea of a signature national pretender, especially for races with no free design points. Like the gorgon for Pangaea in the MA(ignoring you Sauromatia).

Since MA Man gets no design points, and is not among the elite races, I have been fooling around with creating a national pretender for MA Man, which will be in my Kingdom of Avalon Mod.

Not finished yet, but thoughts?

[Sombre]

I guess it depends how strong the reinvig is and what his items are like. Those are all new items - were there no suitable existing ones?

He looks like he'd be a strong expander and able to lay down a bless too.

[Tifone]

@ Sombre,

I'm really, really glad of it. Opening the 3ad I was just looking for a friendly talk about the "signature" of the game - the Pretender Gods. If this thread gives ideas to the modders, even if it isn't of course my merit, I'm happy for that.

I'd even like a lot if the devs take in consideration boosting a bit some of the national pretenders which have just the national paths... I.e. the Ageless Olm, which many rightly appreciate, costs 50 points, isn't an invincible SC, has no easy access to other paths and has just E1W1, paths which EA Agarthan national mages have in great quantity. Boosting it at E4W3 takes 72 points, for a grand total of 122 points.
It wouldn't be logic to give him Fear or Awe or Petrify, but if he was already E4W3 and costing just 70 points i.e., it would be more appealing not just for the die-hard roleplayer but even a little more for the minmaxer - it wouldn't do anything for magic diversity but blessing the pale ones would be easier and the Olm would be a nice mage by itself, thematically worshipped by the Ancient Ones for his deep inbuilt knowledge of their magic
Multi-nation pretenders don't need it IMHO as many are strong by themselves, and many times you can choose them to diversify your magic with paths your nation usually don't have easy access to. Titan pretender also maybe, they make up for that with their full slots.
Just my idea of course ^^

[Sombre]

Eh, I didn't so much mean that this thread influenced the new CBM version, more that people who like unorthodox pretender choices and thematic national gods would probably be happy with the changes in cbm 1.3

So the thread and the coincidental release of 1.3 go very well together.

[Xietor]

"I guess it depends how strong the reinvig is and what his items are like. Those are all new items - were there no suitable existing ones?"

Reinvigoration 2, animal awe 9.

I like creating new items! The Living Vine Shield is a slightly better vine shield. But the pretender has entanglement even without the shield. That is because you cannot mod special abilities into shields.

Blood Stained Spear is 12 ap w/ decay.

May be more thematic to have the spear poison. Helm is nothing special.

[thejeff]

Poison is probably better. More appropriate for a hunter. And decay is fairly useless for an SC.
I'm not sure about the Vine shield. It may be a little to much to have him keep entanglement when you replace the Shield?

The earth is nice for Man, both as a bless and to give access to hammers. They still desperately need access to Astral and/or Death, though. 50 path cost makes it reasonable to add magic.

[JimMorrison]

Tifone said:
...It wouldn't be logic to give him Fear or Awe or Petrify, but if he was already E4W3 and costing just 70 points...

You have to be very careful with the paths though. While I think there should be more pretender chassis that start with paths at 3, you must bear in mind that starting at 3 drastically reduces the cost to get a major bless, and starting at 4 would make it nearly a foregone conclusion that you would go to 9 if you used that pretender, because of cost efficiency. Starting with 2 paths at 3+4, would make a very cheap dual bless available.

Look at it this way, should cost 288 points to go from 1 to 9, so the Olm as it stands costs you 626 points total, to get W9/E9 bless. Going from 3-9 only costs 152 points, or just over half, and 4-9 should only be 120 - for a total cost of 344 for a good dual bless. I'd say with W3/E4 you'd want to at least push him to 150 base cost, though dropping the E to 4 as well would also be a good idea.

Of course, pushing the paths high and increasing base cost to compensate sort of pigeon-holes him somewhat to blesses, in some people's eyes - even if the base cost of 150 would give you strong buffing paths anyway, making him a little more capable as a potential SC.

Looking at Agartha's mages, I'd be willing to say the Olm would have some really interesting options if he were E3 + either F2/W2, or maybe just F1/W1/D1. This gives him some built in versatility as to which paths you exploit, and gives him the option to be a "semi-rainbow", though at the expense of giving you nothing that Agartha doesn't already have.


I think it can be easy to get a bit carried away. Remember that thematic and flavorful is the primary goal, yes, but without paying some attention to the actual balance, you'll only be making SP content, because no one will allow the mod in MP (though if a mod had really strong national pretenders for everyone, you could start the game yourself ), and if it's not vaguely in line with (though of course slightly more versatile or efficient) what is already available, then it'll never get imported to the base game.

Call me naive but I can't help but think that if enough good input comes from the pretender chassis and late game summons threads, that some of it will be patched in for us. <3

[Tifone]

Surely Jim you are right. My was just a, possibly newbish, idea on how the ageless olm would be more competitive. Many people really like it for its flavour, but it surely is a difficult pretender to chose for agartha as it has only the most developed national paths and it is not an ultimate SC. But it wouldn't be really thematic to give it other magic paths than the ones it has (he is a salamander which comes from a subterranean cave - only earth and water come to mind for thigs he has always seen )so no chance to increase national magic diversity, it has not many slots and it would be unthematic also to give him inbuilt one of the traits which are useful for SCs (I don't think it can be really fearful or awe inspiring, and surely he can't petrify or intangle)... So only making it a better mage in what it naturally has came to my mind. This possibly applies to other national pretenders which are good in flavour but the people maybe don't choose because they are -too- thematic.
But surely thanks for your points on balance. Maybe I was just too quick in giving my idea without thinking at the actual cost of a double bless.