Mod: Conceptual Balance 1.3, updated documentation

[Kristoffer O]

> I have yet to ever encounter a veteran player using one, let alone winnning with it.

I used one in my partially successful game as MA Mictlan (prior to the adding of skypriests etc). But I suppose I don't pick pretenders out of efficiency

[quantum_mechani]

Obviously, it's a testament to your skill you were still able to win!

I'm quite open to the idea of not tweaking the master liche, but I know would not use him as is base game, so I'd really appreciate someone smacking me around with him to get the idea.

[Xietor]

lol QM. I have won with a Master Lich, and was doing extremely well in the 1st Big Game with one when the game ended due to the unit cap(owned 7 capitals). I am sure if you made a post on the main forum numerous players would answer in the affirmative that they have won large mp games with the ML.

You cannot plan your pretender point system around blitz games(well you can but..) as they are not complete games.

So i have yet to taste defeat in 2 mp games where i used the ML, and with him i defeated numerous nations and mp, K(lanka), Tibbs(la Man), Sauromatia, Franktrollman LA Atlantis, and several other good mp in the other game.

And as i said, my ML spent a long time in the Hall of Fame in a 65 nation game. Explain that if is he is so bad. and there were 3 gorgons in that game as well.

No, I would not take a ML for a blitz game, but that is a small percentage of player time spent on games. maybe more games in toto since they end faster, but less total player time i would imagine.

The fact is the pod is useless against an astral nation. 3-4 mages spamming solar rays and he is dead. Of course if the ML dies, he just lives on to fight another day! And unlike the pod he cannot be targeted.

Immortal pretenders are good in large mp games, because it can be hard to keep them alive. you have no idea what nation you will border or will be fighting. So immortal pretenders, especially immortal rainbow pretenders that can be used in combat without fear, are valuable.

[quantum_mechani]

Xietor said:
lol QM. I have won with a Master Lich, and was doing extremely well in the 1st Big Game with one when the game ended due to the unit cap. I am sure if you made a post on the main forum numerous players would answer in the affirmative.

You cannot plan your pretender point system around blitz games(well you can but..) as they are not complete games.

So i have yet to taste defeat in 2 mp games where i used the ML, and with him i defeated numerous nations and mp, K(lanka), Tibbs(la Man), Sauromatia, Franktrollman LA Atlantis, and several other good mp in the other game.

And as i said, my ML spent a long time in the Hall of Fame in a 65 nation game. Explain that is he is so bad.

No, I would not take a ML for a blitz game, but that is a small percentage of player time spent on games. maybe more games in toto since they end faster, but less total player time i would imagine.

The fact is the pod is useless against an astral nation. 3-4 mages spamming solar rays and he is dead. Of course if the ML dies, he just lives on to fight another day! And unlike the pod he cannot be targeted.

Not all duels are blitzes, I've seen them played on very big maps. The crux of it is how well, directly or indirectly. can the master liche help you win wars. Obviously it matters what part of the game the war happens in, but I maintain that pitting nations/pretenders/options head to head is the most variable controlled way to show balance.

You have done well with the master liche in some games, but keep in mind the difference we are talking about here is less than one scale tick. I could price the master liche at 150 points, someone could play them and win. Does that mean it's a good price for him?

About the PoD and solar rays, he can make it a lot farther by holding in the back 5 rounds.

The bottom line is, I'm not especially attached to any specific price for the Master Liche, I don't consider a matter of 25 points on him a major issue. I do appreciate feedback on any changes, but the kind of things that usually help change my mind:

1. Compare ability by ability with a similar option. I.E., if you wanted to show the base game PoD/Lord of Sky weren't balanced, compare their abilities and price.
2. Beat me with the option you think is too good. This is my favorite and most sure fire option.
3. A big enough volume of response from a variety of people that support/don't support a change.

[Xietor]

Actually, my main point for you to change him back to base cost is he is used by plenty of players at the base cost.

Even if I beat you with the ML, or Tuidjy did, or you beat me, does not really decide anything. I may just be a better player than you, and I may be able to beat you with the Lord of Fertility. Or you may be able to beat me with the Lord of Fertility.

My main reason for leaving him alone is not that he is good-it is he is perceived as good by many players. Since the purpose of your pretender point redistribution system is to get players to use pretenders no one typically plays,
reducing the ML's cost does not serve the purpose of your pretender's portion of your CBM. He is already one of the most used pretenders in Dom III.

[quantum_mechani]

Oh, I agree, one player beating another with anything doesn't mean much of anything. But, by the same token, if I don't personally see an option used to good effect, I have a very hard time agreeing that it is worthwhile.

Now, your perceived goodness argument does have some merit. From this point of view, it's just a matter of perspective. You have played with a lot of people that use the master liche, I have not. In fact I can't even recall the last time I fought a newbie using one.

[Xietor]

I will save you a spot in my fall mp game then. And I will use one. Though I will likely play MA Ctis as that is the race I like the ML for. He has higher dominion than the sc liches,
and with his cheaper paths, can easily cover all the missing paths MA Ctis lacks.