HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING

[Ming]

First of all, I wish to emphasise that this is not a guide to Hinnom, partly because I am relatively inexperienced in general and have no experience in MP, partly because it is too incomplete to be considered a guide. This is simply an attempt to put down my thoughts on Hinnom so that one can better understand my earlier comments on this nation.

Second, I want to say that I have learnt much on this game from this forum, not least from those who are patient enough to asnwer my stupid questions and point out the errors of my thinking. Sometimes I feel (usually when I am completely deluded) that I do have some understanding of MP in this game even though I have never played it because of all that I have learnt in this forum. Thank you to all of you.

Third, I wish to emphasise that what follows does not detract from Baalz's Hinnom guide in any way. Hinnom is a nation with many strengths. One would naturally find different ways to make Hinnom effective by virtue of focussing different aspects of its strength. This does not mean that one way is necessary better or that there might necessary be a single best way to play Hinnom.

A. General Comments:

A1. Hinnom is obviously a VERY powerful nation. However, one needs to be careful not to overestimate Hinnom's power. Hinnom can do many things well, however, it cannot do all these cool things well at the same time. So the total is less powerful than the sum of its parts. For example, one needs constr4 for blood stones and research in blood path to get the blood summons. If one does that one would (everything else equal) fall behind in other areas of research like Evo ot Thau compared to enemies that focus on them. On the other hand, if Hinnom wish to get access to falling fire quickly, it will need to delay its efforts on blood summons and/or blood stone manufacture. Indeed, one of the major risks in playing hinnom is not being sufficiently focussed to be effective.

A2. Hinnom's current starting army is about twice as strong as anyone else's. This is almost as good as starting with a free awake pretender. I think this goes a long way in making Hinnom overpowered.

A3. Hinnom's PD is the best in the game. This is similar to A2 above.

A4. Hinnom is relatively forgiving to a players' strategic mistakes simply because it is currently so powerful. Otherwise Hinnom is actually quite difficult to play well. There are many ways of making mistakes (eg. hiring too many Rephaim in the early game) and a players needs to be disciplined and carefully weigh his many viable options to be fully effective. For this reason its effective strength is usually weaker than its theoretical strength.

B. Pretender Design

In my view Pretender design is critical to a nation. It often defines a nation and can make or break it. I have found the following design to be sensible but please remember it has not been tested in MP.

B1. Magic Path
If one wish not to hire too many Rephaim in the early game than some bless is essential to make every one of them count. A fire bless is needed to make it more effective against high defense enemies. Earth and nature blesses are needed to survive (and prevail) while greatly outnumbered. so F4E4N4 would be a minimum. N6 would be nice if one can spare the design points, but it is more a luxury than necessarity.

B2. Scales

B2(i) Sloth 1 Growth 3. You can consider this a crop-out. Sloth 1 helps to ensure that you don't get too many Rephaims out too early and G3 mitigates the impact of pop eating later on. Together they almost (but not quite) eliminate pop eating as a handicap.

B2(ii) Heat 2 should be the standard although Heat 3 can be considered.

B2(iii) Magic one is minimum (and maybe the best choice) as Hinnom's cost effective researchers are all R4 only.

B2(iv) Order and luck is somewhat interlinked and is a difficult decision. Luck 3 is very tempting because Hinnom's heroes are almost as strong as some SC pretenders. However, that might not leave enough points for high order (which would reduce your lucky events anyway) and one really is relying on one's luck. Ultimately I think it comes down to player preference. Personally I would have order3 luck 3 and forget about N6. Maybe that is only because in one test game I was so lucky to get 2 heroes in successive turns in the first year!

From the above I use a Dom5 F4E4N4 O3S1H2G3L3M1 imprisioned Scorpion King but it is by no means definitive. I am sure other choices would also work. Lord of Rebirth is definitely a contender as it opens up the death path.

C. Early game strategy

I would focus on Hinnom's non-blood strengths in the early game and would be using very few (if any) blood hunters in the first year. Its research speed is already below average and no need to hamper it further by diverting mages to blood hunter (not to mention having more pop eating Rephaim!). Send the starting army out blind on turn one and get a leg up on early expension. Avoid farms on this turn so as not to run into a hord of knights (you might still win but it is not worth the losses. With sloth 1 you need resource more than gold at the begining anyway). You can either make your scout into a prophet straight away or wait until you have a Baal. Either way you should have a second army out taking indies without loss by turn 3 and a third one by turn 5. Use indies as screens against the really tough indies and/or combine your armies to minimize loss.

It is important that you try to keep losses of your sacred troops to zero (or close to it). With sloth 1 scale you only get 3 or 4(if you are lucky) replacements per turn. While a dozen sacred troops behind a 20 PD beat back repeated attacks of 100-300 strong without loss against the AI in a test game, such would not be possible against your wily opponents. Against human opposition you would need to back them up with battlefield magic ASAP. This is another reason why I would de-emphasise blood magic in the early game.

Build 800G castles quickly to speed up your research. You can recruit Dawn Guides, which is a very effective unit is its own right, to suppliment your sacreds in these castles. For 40G you get 14 attack, 16 defense, and 24 damage. This is one of the best non-sacred troop in the game and the reason you can afford to take sloth1.

Don't forget the Avvite horn blower either. you won't have a large army and breaking down castles will be a problem without these (That was the mistake I made the first time I tried Hinnom). Have a handful of them following your conquering army around to shorten the length of sieges significantly.

That's all folks (read Baalz's guide for comments on the other areas of playing Hinnom).

[chrispedersen]

Ming said:
A2. Hinnom's current starting army is about twice as strong as anyone else's. This is almost as good as starting with a free awake pretender. I think this goes a long way in making Hinnom overpowered.

A3. Hinnom's PD is the best in the game. This is similar to A2 above.

A4. Hinnom is relatively forgiving to a players' strategic mistakes simply because it is currently so powerful. Otherwise Hinnom is actually quite difficult to play well. There are many ways of making mistakes (eg. hiring too many Rephaim in the early game) and a players needs to be disciplined and carefully weigh his many viable options to be fully effective. For this reason its effective strength is usually weaker than its theoretical strength.

B. Pretender Design

In my view Pretender design is critical to a nation. It often defines a nation and can make or break it. I have found the following design to be sensible but please remember it has not been tested in MP.

B1. Magic Path
If one wish not to hire too many Rephaim in the early game than some bless is essential to make every one of them count. A fire bless is needed to make it more effective against high defense enemies. Earth and nature blesses are needed to survive (and prevail) while greatly outnumbered. so F4E4N4 would be a minimum. N6 would be nice if one can spare the design points, but it is more a luxury than necessarity.

B2. Scales

B2(i) Sloth 1 Growth 3. You can consider this a crop-out. Sloth 1 helps to ensure that you don't get too many Rephaims out too early and G3 mitigates the impact of pop eating later on. Together they almost (but not quite) eliminate pop eating as a handicap.

B2(ii) Heat 2 should be the standard although Heat 3 can be considered.

B2(iii) Magic one is minimum (and maybe the best choice) as Hinnom's cost effective researchers are all R4 only.

B2(iv) Order and luck is somewhat interlinked and is a difficult decision. Luck 3 is very tempting because Hinnom's heroes are almost as strong as some SC pretenders. However, that might not leave enough points for high order (which would reduce your lucky events anyway) and one really is relying on one's luck. Ultimately I think it comes down to player preference. Personally I would have order3 luck 3 and forget about N6. Maybe that is only because in one test game I was so lucky to get 2 heroes in successive turns in the first year!

From the above I use a Dom5 F4E4N4 O3S1H2G3L3M1 imprisioned Scorpion King but it is by no means definitive. I am sure other choices would also work. Lord of Rebirth is definitely a contender as it opens up the death path.

C. Early game strategy

I would focus on Hinnom's non-blood strengths in the early game and would be using very few (if any) blood hunters in the first year. Its research speed is already below average and no need to hamper it further by diverting mages to blood hunter (not to mention having more pop eating Rephaim!). Send the starting army out blind on turn one and get a leg up on early expension. Avoid farms on this turn so as not to run into a hord of knights (you might still win but it is not worth the losses. With sloth 1 you need resource more than gold at the begining anyway). You can either make your scout into a prophet straight away or wait until you have a Baal. Either way you should have a second army out taking indies without loss by turn 3 and a third one by turn 5. Use indies as screens against the really tough indies and/or combine your armies to minimize loss.

It is important that you try to keep losses of your sacred troops to zero (or close to it). With sloth 1 scale you only get 3 or 4(if you are lucky) replacements per turn. While a dozen sacred troops behind a 20 PD beat back repeated attacks of 100-300 strong without loss against the AI in a test game, such would not be possible against your wily opponents. Against human opposition you would need to back them up with battlefield magic ASAP. This is another reason why I would de-emphasise blood magic in the early game.

Build 800G castles quickly to speed up your research. You can recruit Dawn Guides, which is a very effective unit is its own right, to suppliment your sacreds in these castles. For 40G you get 14 attack, 16 defense, and 24 damage. This is one of the best non-sacred troop in the game and the reason you can afford to take sloth1.

Don't forget the Avvite horn blower either. you won't have a large army and breaking down castles will be a problem without these (That was the mistake I made the first time I tried Hinnom). Have a handful of them following your conquering army around to shorten the length of sieges significantly.

That's all folks (read Baalz's guide for comments on the other areas of playing Hinnom).

Sorry ming, Overall I disagree quite a lot. Some points:

A2. Agree completely.
A3. Close enough I won't argue.
A4. Agree

B1. The correct number of sacred to build in the early game is ZERO. These units cost WAY to much for rapid expansion.

B2. Scales.
+3 +3 +3 +3 (-1) (+1 or +3).

Hinnom needs production for ALL its units. Very resource intensive. And it needs $. In contrast, it really doesn't need design points very much.

Heat. Go all the way to +3. Sure, it will hurt you (a little). It hurts everyone else more. Secondly, hinnom will almost always have weak dominion. So it wont hurt you that much.

Luck. Misfortune 1. Or even two. Your primary researcher has the ability to cancel negative events. Use it.

Sure, Hinnom national heroes are incredible. Sure, you cut the chance from 3% to 2%. Who cares? You don't *need* them. They're cool, they're neat they're eye candy till the late game. And by then you'll have them.

Magic - player call.

B2. Hinnom has access to most paths. It lacks water, has poor death access. I prefer looking at a dormant rainbow pretender, something like 2 2 2 4 4 0 - with 4's in death and nature, to be able to cast globals. I prefer crones and enchantresses.

C. I ignore blood hunting completely early game. Don't exacerbate pop eating problems, plus it is a question of focus.

Research path:
Con 2; for thistle maces. Enchant -3? For haste. Haste REALLY increases the effectiveness of your tramplers. After that my personal preference is con 4 to start SC contstruction and thau-2, for communion. Probably then blood, just for aid to communions.

I predominantly just use blood in crafting. Hinnom can be perfectly ok in blood hunting - its just a question of *focus*.

I would include 1 hornblower in most units - as I believe they provide a standard bonus. But they really are unnecessary, if you follow my construction plans. 30 or so tramplers, with a few dawn guard mixed in have sufficient strength to seige a lot of castles the turn the province is taken.

However, I do agree that you cannot build enough castles. Baalz missed iirc that you get cheap castles on both hills and forests.

Yes, you need them for building commanders (usually researchers) - but you also need them for income.

Oh, and don't forget to build around 3 acha at some point. Set to heal, they will cure most afflictions in the province.

The tramplers are fairly fragile - so I keep a steady stream of moving wounded ones back to a healing station and advancing fresh ones to the front. No dead heading that way.

Don't forget to use PD. Many people tap out PD at 20 or so. With the giants, in choke provinces, its cost effective up to 30 or 35.

Lastly, you have a Giant priest.. named Karen or Karel something like that. Usually a MUCH better buy than the commanders.

You don't care about leadership - you're going to be ferrying 10-20 troops not 100's.

But the advantage is they have strat move 3 - perfect with the tramplers 3!!!. And they preach and blood hunt. What more could one want. Never without a useful order.

Just one thing. Be careful on scripting. They have a censer or some such thing which causes disease. What you DONT want is that unit getting anywhere near your expensive, units.

So script Holdx5 and cast spells. And keep him (and his disease clouds) well away.

Voila.

[MaxWilson]

Hinnom's death access is just fine because they have D1 mages, which is enough to cast Dark Knowledge, and Death is an easy path to bootstrap into. Without D1 mages it would be a pain though.

The censer on Kohenim causes fatigue damage, which can make them surprisingly effective against unsuspecting SCs.

-Max

[Ming]

Chrispederson,

Thank you for the comments. I am not surprised that you disagree with my take on Hinnom. Hinnom is such a nation. I feel that there are many different ways (well, more than one) to make it work. You prefer to concentrate on chariots and I prefer to use their sacreds. Time will tell what might work best. I like Hinnom's sacred troops because they are cheaper to maintain and effective immediately (IMHO chariots need haste to be effective), much less likely to get afflicted, and probably lower loss rate too. Also, Hinnom's sacred troops are effective in groups of 5 or even less while chariots probably need groups greater than 10 (especially without haste).

I feel more strongly about your point that Production 3 being a must. P3 will only help you in the first few turns, especially if you concentrate on chariots (you'll run out of gold much quicker than resource). Everything else equal, P3 does makes you expand faster innitially but probably only marginally and Hinnom will have one of the fastest expansion rate even without it. Expanding TOO fast is not necessary a good thing even in SP. I suspect it is very much a double edged sword in MP (correct me if I am wrong). So P3 is not an unreasonable choice but definitely NOT the only choice.

Thistle mace is Constr4 and haste is Ench4. To have both researched is probably beyond early game. So you need to be confident that your chariots are effective in the early game without the assistance of haste.

You could be right about not choosing Luck 3 though. It could be more emotional than logical on my part (getting two heroes in year one in a test game can foul up one's logic) and the points might be better spent elsewhere. However, please bear in mind that luck will also give you more gold and Hinnom can use all the gold it can get even with sloth 1 (more so if you concentrate on chariots). This is also why I am not sure if heat 3 is decisively better than heat 2 or not.

BTW if you use Kohen to lead your chariots you definitely should be blood hunting occasionally in the early game - on occasions when you Kohens have nothing better to do.


Kohens eats pop too (I think). So if you need it to take advantage of the chariots' map move of 3 that is a cost you need to consider (Hinnom's sacred troops can be led by indie priests and so your castles can concentrate on researchers).

[chrispedersen]

I've played probably 60 games, with Hinnom, 2-3 mp. I'm very confident the chariots are a great unit, SP or MP.

I *love* bless strategies. To my mind, they are the most fun, and I always start any race with a predisposition - hey.. how can I make a bless work with this nation.

Don't get me wrong - Hinnoms sacreds are solid units. But with morale checks for groups of units under 4, and openended die rolling on individual direct damage spells, you could flee due to one unit being killed.

I don't like the very small forces you would have going a sacred route. Plus, sacreds require a priest which each construction thereof, is one less researcher.

[Ming]

chrispederson,

Let us just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

You certainly have more experience than me. So I won't tell you not to use chariots - you may know some tricks with chariots that I am not aware of. However, I certainly do not find them particularly effective without haste.

BTW, have you tried using Hinnom's sacreds the way I described? Against indies the chance of losing a F4E4N4 blessed sacred troop is quite small if you are careful. If you start with 5 you need to lose 2 to risk being routed. That is a very unlikley event. (The greater risk by far is to lose your priest commander due to flanking - which can be minimised by having some indie bodyguards and careful placement).

Furthermore, Hinnom can get access to blade wind (conj3 and evo4, with falling fire not far behind at evo5) or wooden warrior (alt5, with protection, body ethereal and luck en-route) with less research points than haste (constr4 and Ench4). I am not sure if chariots + haste is necessary better than sacred troops + wooden warrior or sacred troops + blade wind.

Finally, using indie priests to lead Hinnom's sacred troops do not reduce the number of researchers. Using Kohen to lead chariots do.



Anyway, happy gaming!

[thejeff]

The problem with taking sacreds for early expansion with Hinnom isn't that they don't work. It's that they don't need them. As Baalz suggested, I tried a scales build in SP, expanding with groups of 4 chariots and a couple groups of 12 Dawn Guard. Once I had a couple provinces under my belt I could start a new group or 2 every turn. I think 26 provinces by the end of the first year and that mostly because I'd run out of room.
Use the Dawn Guard for anything that looks extra tough, but 4 Chariots can take cavalry or barbarian provinces, usually without losses.
You'll need to combine those expansion parties once you start fighting other nations, but against indies there's no need.
I used indy commanders and my starting prophet. All my capital recruitment went towards research. No need to wait on building a temple to recruit indy priests or use Kohen.

If I was going to consider a bless, it would be for mid/late game Baal use, not expansion.

[konming]

Yes, I agree with thejeff. There is not much need for the sacred. They hardly bring anything that chariot and dawn guards don't bring, even with substantial bless. The only case you might want the sacred is when you face super blessed F9 troops. Also each rephaite warrior devour as much population as a ba'al. (source:dom3db). This, my friend, is really bad.

However, I do find the single path mages somewhat lacking in the mid and maybe late game. You cannot forge most useful stuff, and level 2 is not really that great for many single path spells.

Also they are easy to lose focus. If you go blood, you probably will lose the artifacts war. On the other hand, you need evo to help your troops, thu and conj to site search, alt for useful spells for your SCs. The choice are many and hard. It would be challenging to play them well.

[Ming]

thejeff,

I understand your point, but fighting against indies only last 5 turns or so (at least in the maps that I play in). Investing in troops that only do well in those five/six turns is in my opinion false economy.

I have found that 4 chariots only work against the weaker indies (and scouting reports are not 100% accurate). For others you'll need more and even then you will occasionaly take losses. With Hinnom's sacred troops you can start a new exploration group every turn too if you take production 3 [but that is a P3 vs S1 issue and not chariots vs sacreds. Anyway that'll only give you an extra 2-3 provinces on balance before coming up against other nations in the maps I play - so you could say my comments are based on very different map set-ups - as I find crowded maps to be more challenging in SP. So from my experience the faster expansion is not necessary sufficient to compensate for the extra 160 design points difference between P3 and S1]. So the saving from using chariots is not great. On the other hand you can only recruit a limited amount of sacred troops every turn and they are extremely cost effective in the long run. So it pays to start early.