Real-world sensitivities and game names

[HoneyBadger]

Well, I happen to live in Utah, and admittedly, it wasn't sanctioned by the Mormon church for very long or particularly well, but it did happen, and it was the church founders who were the ones doing it, even as they were publically condemning it. And they had significant, if not ultimate, governmental and political power-more local than federal, but the difference probably didn't mean a whole lot to their various wives.

[HoneyBadger]

It's the combination of the two, thejeff. The Roman Empire supported the early Christian church, and the Catholic church then went on to legitimize the states that followed.

And anything is harmless, if it has no power-the most evil-minded dandelion in the world isn't much of a threat, except to my lawn-it's what's done with whatever power a thing has, that makes a difference.

And the fact remains that in many unfortunate circumstances, Christianity was wielded like a "terrible, swift sword" for reasons political, but in the name of the spiritual.

[thejeff]

Which is my point. Saying "It's never been purely Christianity that has caused problems. It's always been state-supported Christianity", is really just saying Christianity has only caused problems when it's had the power to do so. It's white-washing religion's role in those problems.

Not to blame all problems on Christianity or other religions, or to say they've done no good.

[JimMorrison]

thejeff said:
Which is my point. Saying "It's never been purely Christianity that has caused problems. It's always been state-supported Christianity", is really just saying Christianity has only caused problems when it's had the power to do so. It's white-washing religion's role in those problems.

Not to blame all problems on Christianity or other religions, or to say they've done no good.

Somehow this just sounds like "Religion is a powerful weapon, let us pray it does not fall into the wrong hands.".

[HoneyBadger]

I think Christianity has done quite a lot of good things, either as a force-the Salvation Army, for example-or as individuals (Martin Luther King). But religion can be a dangerous tool that can be used to exploit people and their faith. Whether it's tv evangelists taking money from people who can't afford to live, or anti-semitics who used Christianity as an excuse to persecute Jews.

Religion-and by this I mean the People of the Book (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is like a virus of ideas and ideals. It occupies a host, changing the host to suit it's needs, and then it spreads itself by various means, infecting people more or less strongly, depending on their ability/willingness to fight the infection (or catch the "Spirit"). It's not necessarily a disease-as in, harmful, because the ways in which it seeks to change it's host are often very beneficial-but it often operates with the methods of one, and Christianity is especially virulent, predisposing it's hosts (Missionaries) to seeking out, and then converting, any segments of the population that haven't built up a tolerance for it yet. It mutates, taking on more exotic forms: Mormons, born-again Christians, Rastafarians, Voodoo, even exotic strains, like the deadly Ebola cults of David Coresh and Jonestown, etc.

Viruses by themselves aren't evil. We may think of them superstitiously in those terms, from time to time, but we don't really attach sentience and will to do harm to microscopic (or thought) organisms. They're out to perpetuate themselves, just like we are. And at times, they can be harmful to other life-forms, just like we can. That also doesn't mean they can't do a lot of good too-some have speculated that some form of virus is what caused us to evolve in such a way as to develope speech and language-but if they're introduced into an unprotected, susceptible host, then they can potentially do damage.

They can also mutate over time into more benevolent forms, which are more compatable-more symbiotic and less parasitic-with their hosts than the original form. And I think that's what's happening with religion today. It can still be a force for harm and destruction at times, if the infection is extreme and uncontrolled, but it can also benefit, and take advantage from, peaceful co-existence with the people who actually live by it's ideals, and the people those come into contact with.

[Tifone]

Guys I wanna warn you all. We are starting to think too smartly. They will make us all disappear in some new, elegant, smiling way.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, so when you say "religion" you really mean "the Abrahamic religions." Interesting, but a potentially confusing choice of words because inevitably someone is going to counter a generalization about "religion" with an example from a weird little religion practiced in 16th-century New Guineau (to paraphrase Steven Pinker) and that won't have been what you were trying to talk about at all.

By the way, I think you've just reinvented the concept of "meme". Heh. Now the meme meme has multiple origins.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

So there is potentially a religion in New Guinea that not seek to spread itself to willing minds to survive? That would rock my entire concept of what the term religion actually means, as opposed to philosophy or just plain reasoning.

I think in a nutshell Badger was simply stating that people are people, and religion didn't change anything intrinsic about our properties as organisms.

I have to admit though, I've been having trouble seeing a difference in the rate at which the vector manifests itself in the darker desires of humanity - but this could just be because of the sheer volume of the population who carry it.


That's why I prefer philosophies and reasonings though, they don't pull guilt trips on you when you grow past them.

[MaxWilson]

JimMorrison said:
So there is potentially a religion in New Guinea that not seek to spread itself to willing minds to survive? That would rock my entire concept of what the term religion actually means, as opposed to philosophy or just plain reasoning.

I think in a nutshell Badger was simply stating that people are people, and religion didn't change anything intrinsic about our properties as organisms.

HoneyBadger said explicitly, "Religion-and by this I mean the People of the Book (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is like a virus of ideas and ideals." It's explicitly not applicable to our hypothetical weird little religion (it is not, hypothetically, that of the People of the Book).

Anyway, if you equate "religion" = "meme" you are missing out IMHO on some of the richer meaning of the word. I'd probably define it differently, something like: "Religion is that which a person implicitly or explicitly holds to be true independent of social consensus of its truthfulness." From this standpoint, "Jesus was divine" and "humans have a responsibility to conserve resources for other animals" are both religious beliefs for certain people because they are not (easily) subject to disproof or argument from other people. They're simply fundamental to that person's worldview. Note that this definition diverges starkly from the traditional view that "religion is any belief which has something to do with God," but I think it's a nicer, more fundamental definition.

-Max

[thejeff]

JimMorrison said:
So there is potentially a religion in New Guinea that not seek to spread itself to willing minds to survive? That would rock my entire concept of what the term religion actually means, as opposed to philosophy or just plain reasoning.

I don't know about New Guinea, but as a larger example: For most of it's history Judaism has been the religion of the Jewish people. Children were raised in the religion, but outside converts were not sought and depending on the time and particular variant of the religion may not have been allowed.

There are other examples...