"MoD+Retreat" defeated w/o killing caster

[K]

calmon said:
I downloaded your first example K and build up the exact same situation 2 turns later.

I saved it and run it 20 times and your outcome happens in exactly 2 cases! In all other (18 times) the lanka commanders were fled to adjacent provinces and only your berserking troops existing in the province. (BTW: A good player would try to prevent a sucessfull excape by conquering the adjancent provinces)

At least in your first example i'm sure you tried it more than one time to get this outcome and you know that it was just luck!

So even with the fact you build up a perfect situation for a defence against MoD you fail!

Interesting. I ran it twice and since it worked I posted it. (And it was an individual battle example, and not a metagame example that considered overall war strategy).

Most importantly: where is your saved game? I'd like to check your results and see if you did anything wrong with scripting, unit placement, composition of units, etc.

That being said, the third game I posted is also a clear win using a completely different army composition and different tactics.

How many wins will satisfy the community?

[calmon]

Savegame Uploaded. Like i said. I just played another 2 turns of your game to fill up air gems to cast MoD and Storm (for Lanka) again. Nothing else changed so its exactly your starting position. I even gave more gems to the defending storm caster.

(The Mapfile is in K's first post package)

[K]

calmon said:
Savegame Uploaded. Like i said. I just played another 2 turns of your game to fill up air gems to cast MoD and Storm (for Lanka) again. Nothing else changed so its exactly your starting position. I even gave more gems to the defending storm caster.

(The Mapfile is in K's first post package)

My battle takes place in Friendly Dominion(+1 Morale). Your battles probably take place in Neutral(+/-0) or Enemy Dominion(-1). Considering that your pretender is closer, it probably is enemy dominion.

That explains why my guys Retreat earlier in your games. Two points of morale is a big deal in a long battle.

[calmon]

K said:
My battle takes place in Friendly Dominion(+1 Morale). Your battles probably take place in Neutral(+/-0) or Enemy Dominion(-1). Considering that your pretender is closer, it probably is enemy dominion.

That explains why my guys Retreat earlier in your games. Two points of morale is a big deal in a long battle.

I can't remember any battle were Lanka fled because of morale. They retreat after reaching battleturnlimit!

And even if not it was neutral ground (which is 1 morale difference!), so please don't tell us the battles ran this way because your commanders had morale 20 instead of 19!

[K]

calmon said:

I can't remember any battle were Lanka fled because of morale. They retreat after reaching battleturnlimit!

And even if not it was neutral ground (which is 1 morale difference!), so please don't tell us the battles ran this way because your commanders had morale 20 instead of 19!

Well, having seen the effect of a single Standard, I'd argue that one point of morale is a big deal.

But, I did run the test ten more times this morning using your files and no other changes and I can't really account for your results. Even if I just hit Host, I keep getting consistent Lankan wins either by Seraph kills(2) or outfighting the MoD(8).

Are you running a mod? Are you patched to the latest version?

I did notice that the Seraph got killed in two of the games, which is interesting and I would have noticed with more test games. The False Horrors force him into melee and he's not casting his spells or retreating.

Look at the second game(same map and different set-up) or the third game I posted(Abysian army + Fire Storm vs. MoD + Storm + Wrathful Skies + Grip of Winter + Quagmire + Retreat). The third game actually ends pretty quick and is nicely impressive with fire, snow, and lightning pyrotechnics.

[calmon]

K, just take my save game and run it. I think you're not so stupid and count the victories, aren't you?

The outcome is always "lanka wins". The question is how they win. After battleturn limit lanka gets an autoroute! Most of the commanders and troops fled and just some few remains in the province.

[K]

calmon said:
K, just take my save game and run it. I think you're not so stupid and count the victories, aren't you?

The outcome is always "lanka wins". The question is how they win. After battleturn limit lanka gets an autoroute! Most of the commanders and troops fled and just some few remains in the province.

I guess I'm stupid.

Ok, I ran it five more times. In two there was a clear victory with no retreats, in two there was a victory and 1 or 4 mages ended up in neighboring provinces, and in the last one the seraph never go to cast because he was driven off.

What's your point?

I could alter the scripting like I did in the second posted game and there would be fewer retreating mages, but the three saved games I posted are all examples of outfighting the MoD. They are "proof of concept" games.

I could toss two more mages in and then have 100% repeatable games where no one retreats, but what would that prove? I've already shown the bare minimum needed to outfight a MoD.

Getting hit by any mage ambush involves losses. Hell, you should see what that same Seraph can do when scripted to cast Shimmering Fields and then Retreat. Watch the results of a powerful Beckoning or a Cold 3 Murdering Winter.

As far as I can tell, the essence of good DomIII play is taking a few gems and making your enemy lose more gems.

[MaxWilson]

K said:

Interesting. I ran it twice and since it worked I posted it.

FYI to Calmon and K both, the easiest way to run a battle multiple times is to insert some random militia or archer unit into it near the beginning of the battle (with Shift+U). That changes the random seed and gives new results without much affecting the battle itself. It's easier than saving the game and copying-and-running the turn twenty times.

-Max