Forthcoming patch notes

[Tifone]

Really I don't understand all this hatred against the turn limit

As this game is supposed to work well even on low-level systems, pumping up this limit would render the waiting between turns a lot longer... can you imagine 200 turn battles in a large map with 15 nations? Heeek!

2nd, I think a not so long turn limit makes perfect sense. After all, a turn just represent a month and (unless teleportations, which still take time for magic preparatives) involves the preparatives for the equipment tents and stuff, the trip from one region to another, the battle which takes days... And it's not easy to fight and stay in a province under the direct control of the enemy - after some time, you want or not, an army has to fall back for resupplying, regathering troops, reorganize formations. And both the attacker and the defender have their right to see their reinforcements on the march from the neighbour provinces come after some time battling - they are not fighting endlessy in a limbo separed from the physic world.
As it is IMHO, the turn limit gives plenty of time for a strong attacker to kill many, many units. But if it is unable to kill/rout all of them before 50 turns, he just wasn't strong enough to do it in just one month. He reorganizes, receives the reinforcements, the defender does so, and the fight begins again.

The only minor problem came from MoD (solved) and the other few tactics - usually spells - not working as stated, with units non-retreating after their time and the defender dying. Vengeance of the Dead i.e.

[WraithLord]

I'm all in favor of increasing the hard coded turn limit to something in the range [100,200].

I can relate to some Micah's points. Yes, I think the change has huge impact on game play, much beyond what a simple bug fix should do, and Yes, it will eliminate a favorite tactic of using SCs to eradicate armies.

Having said that I must confess that I'm still in favor of the BE change for the following reason:
A. Consistency. As Jazzepi pointed out, it doesn't make sense that the mages death will stop the BE while his fleeing the battle won't.
B. Flavor. IMHO, MP end games deteriorate too much into SC slug fest where mundane armies lose their relevancy. I don't really like having the spend so much of my thinking at the end game to analyzing what SCs the enemy has, how they are equipped and scripted and then have to come up with counters (in the form of my SCs) to those. And this process takes place every turn b/c a capable opponent will always adapt. The game is about nations and their gods battling for supremacy and not a glorified death match.
Given, its all about the balance of things. I like SCs, I like the role play feel to them and their ability to take and deal sever punishment. But I think the scale has tipped too far towards SC dominance.

The change will not invalidate SCs at all. A group of SCs, some blockers and some BE casters could still eradicate unprepared armies. But it will be a bit more difficult to execute and the risk will be greater (as Jazzepi has pointed out).

I don't think this will make end game less about tactics. tactics would still be there, from raiding, assassinating, casting artillery spells and so on and so forth. The tactic of casting and BE and retreating will not be there, and the end of the day, I like it better that way.

[llamabeast]

Gandalf - I think the most common use will simply be to add more, interesting nations to multiplayer, where they are of similar strength to the base game. e.g. Sombre's Skaven, Arga Dis, Ulm Reborn and so on. I've really enjoyed the games I've played with them in.

Sombre: Well, the games I've started with mod nations included have always filled up. I just don't really have time to start many games.

[NTJedi]

WraithLord said:
I'm all in favor of increasing the hard coded turn limit to something in the range [100,200].

I'm also in favor of increasing the turn limit. Ideally this should become an adjustable game setting.

As time passes eventually patches for Dominions_3 will stop, however computers will continue to become more and more powerful. Dominions_3 will live longer for all gamers if the game can continue to adjust to the computers of tomorrow.

[Zeldor]

Tifone:

How many battles go beyond 50 turns? Just a few. So from time to time you'd have a battle that lasts 100 turns. It would be like counting 1 more battle, almost no difference. And those battles that end with turn limit really limit tactcs and screw some pople unfairly.

[Omnirizon]

many ppl complain of the VoD turn limit exploit.

I recall once exploiting the turn limit by using tons of fatigue spells (heat from hell, curse of stones, rigor mortis) + LaD to cause both armies to fall asleep until the turn limit hit and I won. The LaD was just there to resurrect my units who died from fatigue, so I could hold out a little longer.

the battle ended with a legions of sleepy Hydras fleeing from three (yes, farking THREE) soulless. It's one of my most memorable battles ever. Even better, I moved in a flying SC to the province that the attacking army was leaving; turn order worked out so that they left, and I captured that province. When they fled due to the turn limit, they all got auto-killed. It wasn't elegant, but it worked.

I don't think what I did was an exploit though, it took planning and execution, the VoD is just cheap ***.

Also on another note, I'd like to see turn order randomization improved. In this particular game, I moved AFTER this person basically every move that we made into each others territory (not from friendly to friendly). In ten such cases of movement, I swear this nation moved before me everytime. It would be nice to see smaller armies, non-stealth, and flying armies get a bonus in the random move order, or something. I don't understand why my flying cyclops can't ever intercept an army of 50 Hydras.

[Tifone]

To me this is just not a "computers' power" issue... It is a logical issue - that battles that last a long time aren't placed in a limbo out of the world, but it's normal that after a while both defenders and attackers have their reinforcements arrive, and need to reorganize.

For the battle's timing too, 50 seem a lot, and just right. I mean, after 3 turns waiting, the most of the troops need to attack or retreat. That's maybe one turn to reach the enemy and then 44 to bash each other. It doesn't seem so restrictive.

I just would like someone to tell me what can an upper turn limit add to the game experience - actually, I see no advantage. While the things as they are have the advantage are:

-low-systems friendly for no long waits
-logical for the needs of the armies to reorganize
-a balance issue as the troops you have in the proximities of the battle (near provinces) should be able to join the fight after some time.

Really, why do you ask for an upper turn limit?

Even an adjustable issue - I dunno. Wouldn't that create a lot of confusion for the MP games? I mean, having battles ending at 50 turns or at 200 goes for a ground-breaking change in gameplay. Deciding a turn limit for every MP game, while many adjusts it in SP the way they like, could end up being uncomfortable for people used to different battle tactics.

I don't wanna do destructive criticism for that. I would like someone explaining me the point, if there is any. Peace

[Tifone]

Zeldor: why a battle should last more than 50 turns? Because the attacker didn't bring the necessary amount of... let's call it "firepower", to get rid of the defence in that province.
He went deep into enemy territory, where the PD, the paesants keeping the supplies, everything is against him - and he wasn't able in a 50 turns fight to clear the province of the defenders. The battle lasted more than one month. Isn't it obvious that now his soldiers need to retreat to a friendly province (or at least try to) to reorganize, resupply, have reinforcements? Don't the defender after 50 turns have the right to receive the reinforcements coming from the friendly provinces?

Historic realistic example everybody know: WWI. The war of attrition - no faction having at the borders enough soldiers to conquer the enemy territory. The fights didn't last forever till one side won the territory - they lasted months, with the dying soldiers being replaced continuously.

If you tell me that some spells and some situations bring this "turn limit rule" to a bug/exploit level, I can agree that it is unfair. But I think maybe those spells need an adjustement, like it is gonna happen for the MoD phantasms, not the whole turn limit system.

[Twan]

Tifone said:If you tell me that some spells and some situations bring this "turn limit rule" to a bug/exploit level, I can agree that it is unfair. But I think maybe those spells need an adjustement, like it is gonna happen for the MoD phantasms, not the whole turn limit system.

Try playing the Jotun with a E9N10 bless and use werewolves in shroud of battle saint + ring of regeneration (40% regen), with reinvig boots and MR amulet and buffed with luck and body ethearal of course.

These berserk unkillable werewolves make any battle against a big conventional army last 50+ rounds, in most situations they win in defense about as surely as a MoD spell (hum yes there are some % of chance to counter them with slaying spells or some lucky critical hits, K will probably post an example). But due to their berserking their superpower turn against them in attack were they are often autokilled in attack in round 75, if opponents are numerous enough.

A turn limit around round 100 would make more of these battles end by a real victory or defeat instead. A "conventionnal end" being the matter of some lucky critical hits or unlucky moral check finally rolled by the troops surrounding the werewolves, any turn added would reduce the chance of auto-victory/defeat.

[Zeldor]

Nah, 50 turn really promotes undead, as they don't rout with turn limit. Or paralyzing someone for 30 turns. Or berserk troops. Losing sides get some of that and battle goes on to turn75 because of that and winner routs.

Another thing is mindless commanders vanishing at turn50. That is not funny.

Many battles just deserve to be resolved on battlefield, not by some virtual turn limit that forces whole army to spread into neighbouring provinces.