The Bogarus Problem

[sector24]

You can have an enchanted sword, fire plate, and a pendant of luck on turn 6. Might be too late, but then again might not...

[K]

sector24 said:
You can have an enchanted sword, fire plate, and a pendant of luck on turn 6. Might be too late, but then again might not...

Not the most impressive SC equipment, and it means you shot straight for Con 2 and made everything on Turn 5 to equip on Turn 6. Without equipment, your Turn 6 Cyclops is lucky to not be blind or dead because he hit something surprising that didn't show up like some calvary or crossbowman.

[sector24]

I'm not sure what you are arguing. Should Bogarus players give up on a military counter against the rush since apparently nothing is going to work except diplomacy and the divine pity of their neighbors? Or should they just do whatever they want because there aren't a lot of dual bless rushers in the late age? I'm kidding (a little).

Personally, I would take an awake PoD with D5/E4 and get Con 2 immediately just for the deterrent effect that it might have. Anything less and you may as well have not bothered signing up to play. Maybe you're going to get rolled, but at least you put up a good fight and maybe earned a little respect from your opponent when the next game rolls around.

[K]

I'm arguing (probably in vain) that you don't need a poorly equipped SC to beat back an early Bless rush with this nation. They have good province defense, archers, and access to Smiters, and that's a perfectly good counter to Bless Rushers.

In my mind, Awake SC gods are a gamble for people who can't come up with a more reliable strategy. Add that to the fact that it messes with your mid- and endgame, and I just can't recommend it.

[JimMorrison]

K said:
I'm arguing (probably in vain) that you don't need a poorly equipped SC to beat back an early Bless rush with this nation. They have good province defense, archers, and access to Smiters, and that's a perfectly good counter to Bless Rushers.

In my mind, Awake SC gods are a gamble for people who can't come up with a more reliable strategy. Add that to the fact that it messes with your mid- and endgame, and I just can't recommend it.

You just summed up most of what I was posting, without getting sidetracked with all the gory little details. I need to work on that, I get so effuse that I practically beg for someone to pick at my logic, rather than just cleanly laying down a position. Good show!

[sector24]

We can agree to disagree, but try a build like this:

Awake PoD
5 Death
4 Earth
Dominion 10
Order 3
Sloth 1
Cold 3
Growth 1
Luck 0
Drain 2
13 points remaining

Bogarus prefers cold 2 and they are arguably the best nation to take drain with. Their research is insane, and most powerful magic is done with communions so you are in control of your own fatigue situation by using more slaves.

Your starting national troops can only take the easy strength 5 independents. You will probably be supplementing that army rather than building a 2nd expansion force, so all you can hope for is 1 province per turn. If someone sees that you are their neighbor and they take a look at the score graphs, you are dead. An awake PoD doubles your expansion rate, and unlike a cyclops it can fly and pick provinces where the chance of afflictions is lower.

Bogarus' mid-game and end-game are already secure. They just need to survive the first 20 turns, and part of that is convincing your opponents that you're not the easiest target on the map (which you are).

Maybe you're a silver-tongued devil and you can convince your neighbors to leave you alone, or maybe you'd prefer getting knocked out on turn 9 if you can't win the whole thing, but if either is the case Bogarus doesn't sound like your cup of tea anyway.

[chrispedersen]

I think an undead pretender is a poor choice against a powerful priest bless strategy.

My own submission follows = )

[Ming]

K,

I am a little confused by your comments.

If you think Bogarus's troops and PD have a good chance of defending itself, then the addition of an awake god must improve that chance substantially. Please bear in mind that the awake god need not fight alone.

On the other hand, if you think Bogarus is not even a speed bump with an awake god, than it would be even less without one.

I am not necessary saying that you are wrong, but you might wish to clarify your seemingly contradictory statements.

[K]

Ming said:
K,

I am a little confused by your comments.

If you think Bogarus's troops and PD have a good chance of defending itself, then the addition of an awake god must improve that chance substantially. Please bear in mind that the awake god need not fight alone.

On the other hand, if you think Bogarus is not even a speed bump with an awake god, than it would be even less without one.

I am not necessary saying that you are wrong, but you might wish to clarify your seemingly contradictory statements.

Sure. I'm saying that fighting off a dual Bless attacker is going to come from your troops, PD, overall unit placement and strategy, and whatever magic you can muster. An SC pretender is remarkably weak early in the game without the proper equipment, so spending points on one for a hypothetical Turn 6 attack is a fine way of killing your late game for almost nothing in return. For a laugh, send in a Dom10 PoD without equipment against a small Bless Army backed by some archers and see how badly he gets hurt.

Sure, it will help (assuming it doesn't get killed or Feebleminded against a lucky indie). But, having good scales will also help by letting you get more gold and resources for troops.

The "Awake SC Pretender" strategy is about equipping them decently to take care of trouble provinces or to kill moderately sized enemy armies on Turns 10-20. If you are worried about Turn 6, then an Awake SC Pretender is not worth the little help it offers.

[chrispedersen]

Father of Winters
-3 -3 -3 (cold) x +3 luck, +2 Magic.
Dominion 9. W-10.

So look - we already know the Bogarus troops are well - bogus. Looking at the nation, you see the slimmest ray of hope.

All the troops are cold resistent (50). They have a cheap sacred. (10/3 thats sacred chaff).

And the Father of Winders has Cold Power. So going into a 4-5 dominion cold 3 province.. he has 150+ hp, chill 25, defense 27.

So the premise here is: To take a clue from the name - the Age of Heros. And indeed 3/5 times I tried this I got a national hero in the first 6 turns.

Expand cautiously. Preach prodigiously. You have cheap H3 priests. Use them as smiters. Use the sacred as chaff allowing the chill to kill.

You're going to take a lot of chaff casualties. But oddly, it allows you to do relatively better in hcav provinces.

But avoid undead with your pretender - and be very very careful. He's very fragile.

You might also try a death -3, and screw your army completely.