The Bogarus Problem

[K]

Renojustin said:

So basically you're arguing that you shouldn't get the provinces if you can't hold them against a determined attack? That's fallacious.

1. You can continue to conquer enemy or indy provinces with your awake pretender, forcing them to retake them against cheap PD, jacking up the taxes in a raiding scenario.

Maybe you can and maybe you can't. In the early game an SC pretender can be killed by something as mundane as some of the readily available LA crossbowmen or calvary set to Attack or Fire Large Monsters. Taking indies is a whole different proposition from taking enemy provinces.

Check out some of the LA guides floating around. Baalz has a nice LA Atlantis guide that details easy ways to kill SCs using only Atlantis's base troops, and even weaker nations like Patala can kill an SC with minimal research and a single mage casting Gifts from Heaven.

In the short term, holding provinces is not a big deal. I recently killed a skilled opponent by letting him take 80% of my provinces while I made a determined attack towards his capital. Once I took it and stopped his production of national troops, retaking my lost provinces was not even an issue.

SCs are good at taking provinces in the short term, and terrible at holding them in the long term.

Renojustin said:
2. You always have more total gold because of the fact that you got the provinces. Your sustained growth backed up by mixed forces is only better for the SC being there and may be your only viable option to achieve this considering your military.

I've noted several times that adding smiters to an army vastly increases their ability to take Indies. I don't know what your standards are, but I find that making an army that can take a province a turn every other turn is perfectly fine by most people's standards.

Renojustin said:
3. An awake SC will lend disincentive to invasion, whereas if you do not have one, you are approaching 100% sure to get invaded by anyone that spots you. That's not a good mid-to-endgame strategy at all.

Actually, an Awake SC tells me "wow, this guy has no resources or gold or research since it's tied into building up an early game SC. I should kill him now when he's weak before he gets good equipment."

Renojustin said:
4. If you can't hold them with a pretender PLUS everything else, you can't hold them at all. So how exactly do you propose to spend those points any better?

I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense. So it's telling that you are counseling people to not take an awake pretender and offering no competitive strategy in return. I would too if I wanted to beat Bogarus.

Well, not making mistakes is not the same as having a good strategy. A player more experienced with Bogarus may have been able to do more with it.

For example, ask yourself these questions:

1. Did he use Smiters in his armies?

2. Were his Voi Archers in the front of the battlefield or in the middle/back?

3. Did he keep at least five Styags with his army (these are the non-commanders with Standards)?

4. Did he force you to meet him in battlefields with his Province Defense built up?

5. Did he have good Production scales, and did he use low resource units like the various Voi or the high resource Peshtsi?

And some overall strategy questions:

6. Did he concentrate his forces, or did he meet you in several battles?

7. Did he buy and use mercenaries?

8. Did he ever make a viable rush to your capital, or did he try to retake his lost provinces?

9. What were his chances of events(Order and Luck scales), and is there evidence that he had any bad events strike in the first few turns?

10. Could he have had very strong indies near his capital, thus slowing his expansion?



I know that if he had mages and some magic as you said, then he probably didn't have any smiters. If he made that choice, then he was probably unfamiliar with Bogarus's other strengths. I can see how easily someone might be seduced by the long-term power of good research and they would avoid the short-term power of Smiters in the early game.

I don't expect or want any answers to these questions, but I want you to mull them over for your own edification. The issue is more complex than what you learned in one game with a single Bogarus player.