MOO3 - Page 3

comisar · #21 May 9th, 2002, 01:51 AM

Lacking in diplomacy is one thing. Not having any is another. SEIV might as well have no diplomacy. There is absolutly nothing that can be accomplished in SEIV by the use of diplomacy.

PvK · #22 May 9th, 2002, 02:17 AM

Well, a lot of the "promises" in diplomacy with SE4 AI's don't seem to really work. Until they do (or, assuming they won't) it would make sense to set all of the AI's to just ignore Messages it can't respond to, and/or to send appropriate refusals. This can be modded, though it'd be a bunch of work - maybe Suicide Junkie would be willing to adjust his AI modder to do this.

However there is quite a bit that can be accomplished with diplomacy with the AI. As I mentioned in another thread, I've even tried to play games where practically the only thing I allow myself to do is diplomacy (this makes a very fast game, and is not meaningless).

Diplomacy determines two very important things:

* Trade, which can multiply resource production, resources, intel, and knowledge.

* Hostility - who fights with whom.

It also determines other things, such as sharing of resupply depots.

Gifts and trade can be used to make up for resource imbalances and therefore keep production and maintenance flowing. It can also lead to vital tech gains (the most powerful of which might be trade for colonization technology, which of course can be a huge advantage). Gifts and trades can also be used to beef up an allied AI with your own designs, techs, resources, and production. It can also allow you to "fight" nations without declaring war on them, by gifting warships to aliens who are at war with them, while you maintain friendly relations.

PvK

jimbob · #23 May 9th, 2002, 02:36 AM

I agree with PvK, there are a lot of useful possibilities presented in the diplomacy screen - for me the most useful is the "trading" of resources and technologies.

However, I do have to agree that it's annoying to strong arm a long-time ally into helping you fight an enemy, only to find out that the ally is doing nothing to help! A few simple hardcode changes would likely solve the problem (ie. if AI agrees to break treaty, then break treaty for 10 turns; if AI agrees to declare war, then declare war and reject peace-treaties for 10 turns).

Perhaps the AI could be moded to even negotiate the length of the term of the agreement.

It could become more complex of course. And this is what we all are hoping for. The AI could be programmed to respond with many different responses - and as long as it does them, then the coding efforts would be worthwhile:

"Hmmmm... a long term war with the B'Jong would be costly. We would be willing to declare war for 10 months instead of the 30 months that you propose"

Or

"Declare war on the B'Jong?! They've been our allies since the birth of the Grak Nork. But for 100 000 kT of minerals and your Sheild Generation 3 technology we would be willing to break our trade agreements with them"

Or

"Declare war on the B'Jong?! Perhaps if we were to punitively sanction them by giving you some of our war ships instead?"

just my $Cdn 0.02

edit - of course the human player would have to be held to his/her agreements with other players, otherwise we're right back to square one with the AI abuse

I suppose if we were to get really fancy we could make various diplomatic options unavailable at the diplomacy screen for the duration of the players "agreements". That is, if you make an agreement with Alien1 to go to war with Alien2 for 30 months, then you would have a greyed out button when it came to entering into diplomatic relations with Alien2 until the 30 months was up.

Or, you could start up normal relations with Alien2 again, but you'd be warned that if Alien1 finds out, your relations with Alien1 will go right down the tubes (say -20 points for backstabbing).

That's 2 more of those Canadian coppers for ya

[ 09 May 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]

oleg · #24 May 9th, 2002, 07:54 PM

I think it might be usefull to create a new thread about SE IV diplomacy and revert this thread to its original purpose: to articulate why somebody would like to buy SE IV when Moo3 is on horizon.

Personally, I think SEIV is far superior to Moo3.
The reason is simple: Moo3 is a rigid, uncustomizable hybrid of RTS/TBS (this is my impression upon visiting Moo3 web site). SE IV is not simply a game, it is a lego set to make your own Universe the way you like and then add every single piece of Sci-Fi you like.

Chrowl · #25 May 9th, 2002, 08:22 PM

Hi all,

I just stumbled across this preview of MOO3 at Gamespot.com. There is also a boatload of screencaps with the article.

Here's a link:

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories...864668,00.html

Captain Kwok · #26 May 9th, 2002, 08:31 PM

Quote:

SE IV is not simply a game, it is a lego set to make your own Universe the way you like and then add every single piece of Sci-Fi you like.

Oleg - That is exactly it! I couldn't put it any better than that. I always wished that I could make my own 4x space game but since I lack the skills for such a task - SE IV gives me enough control to the point where it feels like my own game. If I want phasers - then I just type in some info, draw a pic, and bam I got phasers. This is why SE IV and SE IV Gold are the only games I have bought in the Last year and a half.

Plus, what other game do you know where you can actually influence what new features are added or get your name listed in the credits?

[ 09 May 2002, 19:32: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

capnq · #27 May 9th, 2002, 08:47 PM

The problem with SE IV's diplomacy is that the AIs have no memory of the past beyond the current and proposed treaty status, their Mood towards the other race, and the time since the Last proposal or war. (I think that's all of the factors.) It's the same problem as with most of the other failings of the AI, not retaining information.

The basic diplomacy model in Civ1, Civ2, and Alpha Centauri is pretty much the same, and not all that different from MOO1 or SE IV. They just get progressively more sophisticated in terms of what choices you have. I expect the same pattern holds for Civ3 and MOO2, which I haven't played.

Getting back to the original point, the reason to buy SE IV now rather than wait for MOO3 is that you can buy SE IV now. If your disposable income is so low that you can't afford to buy both, you probably won't be in any better shape by the time MOO3 is released, anyway. (If it is. I know quite a few people who think MOO3 is getting more vaporous every day.)

It's like buying computer hardware, if you wait for the Next Big Thing, you'll never buy anything. Buy what you need when you need it.

[ 09 May 2002, 19:57: Message edited by: capnq ]

Captain Kwok · #28 May 14th, 2002, 02:57 AM

<BUMP?>

Atilla the Pun · #29 May 14th, 2002, 07:02 AM

Thanks for all the feed back gang! This is waaaaay more info than I got from the same request on the Apolyton Boards. Where I might add that MOO3's lead designer used to post before he got canned.

AtP

Dogberry · #30 May 14th, 2002, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atilla the Pun:
Thanks for all the feed back gang! This is waaaaay more info than I got from the same request on the Apolyton Boards. Where I might add that MOO3's lead designer used to post before he got canned.

AtP

Do you mean Alan Emrich .. or someone else ? If Alan got the axe... the hopes of a decent game have gone way down. & of an eventual MOM .. have vanished.

Dog

P.S. They can be arrogant as hell over there at "Poly" sometimes... Ming is ok tho ( just in case he hears about this )

[ May 14, 2002, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Dogberry ]