Wishlist: Ammo Loadouts, and Z-fire Abuse

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Cross

It was also brought up that the major reason for the abuse of Z-fire, was because most units just had far too much ammo. This spawned a second thread about ammo loadouts here:

There was discussion about realistic ammo loads carried by squads, and how is it that squads in SPWW2 can maintain sustained fire throughout a battle without re-supply?

That is not strictly true, is it? Infantry units carry 80-90 "rounds" of small arms fire (rifle, MG) and an experienced unit can fire 5-6 "rounds" pr. turn if stationary, unsuppressed etc.

So if a unit was firing constantly, the ammo would last 13-18 turns - less than the duration of many battles.

Admittedly, infantry units rarely run low on or out of small arms ammunition, but that would seem to be because they spend their time out of range, moving or in a state of suppression, meaning that they do not fire as much as they could.

But if you are in a tough infantry battle, you can actually end up firing most of it, if not all - at least I have on several occassions. But I tend to like those drawn out infantry slugfests

Seems to me that infantry units need a lot of ammo for those types of battle, while they may seem overstocked for the more mobile types of fight which many players may prefer?

I’ve been playing SP for 7 or 8 years, and I’ve never had an infantry or MG unit run out of ammo! Currently in SP, ammo shortages are usually only an issue for artillery units.

While I agree that infantry rarely run out of small arms ammo, I have them run out of heavy weapons ammo often. Support weapons like mortars always seem to run low or out, be they with infantry units or seperate units. My tanks often run out of HE when fighting mainly infantry and guns, and run out of AP in tank battles. But again, I like to engage at long ranges whenever some small advantage can be gained.
As you say, artillery always runs out, it seems.

1. Lower the maximum ammo loads of certain units to the point that you actually have to conserve ammo or get re-supplied.
(Personally I’d leave most AFV as they are, but lower the ammo levels for infantry and MG units. Mech units could have higher ammo loadouts, but still lower than current levels.)

AFVs should definately be left out. They carry in the game what they had room for in reality, which may in some cases be too little as it was not unknown for crews to stack extra rounds. Making some arbitrary reduction just because some people think some other people make excessive use of Z-fire seems over the top.

I must admit, I dont really see why the tediousness of resupply is all that attractive. People who need the extra ammo would just by ammosupply and fire away. As many do now for their artillery. So fighting a Z-fire addict would remain as boring as previously.

On a side note, I seem to recall a discussion way back, when some people were angry with others for using excess artillery. To me, it seems more a case of player preferences - some like to use a lot of firepower, others prefer to manouver (or not to get shot at ).

2. Make Z-fire cost 5x or 10x the ammo. (This may not be possible to code)

Wouldn't bother me much, as I dont use the feature much, but why should it expand more ammo? IIRC Z-fire is quite in-accurate and in-effective. True, if you bunch up a lot of units in one place and the opponent pour on Z-fire from several of his units, it can be effective - but how is that not realistic?
The fire is still treated as the same "bursts" as normal fire, IIRC?

3. Create a realism slider button (like the Infantry/Tank toughness ones) to give players the choice to lower ammo loads for certain types of units.

Again, the issue is not ammo load, in my opinion, it is that some people doesn't like opponents who use a lot of Z-fire. So instead of tampering with ammo loads, why not make a Z-fire effectiveness button or a Z-fire ammo expenditure button? Or a Z-fire On/Off button? Then it would at least adress the percieved Z-fire problem.

There already exists an Ammo Limit ON/OFF button in the realism preferences; but with ammo loadouts so high for most units, it really only limits artillery.

I'd have to disagree, effectively it limits all units and weapons except infantry (and perhaps AFV) small arms.

My two ørers worth, anyway.

cbo

[Cross]

Hi CBO,

I guess we have to remember that this is only a game that attempts to simulate certain aspects of warfare. With that in mind, we can legalistically adhere to accurate historical ammo loadouts and actually make the game less realistic.

I agree that AFV and artillery units (including mortars) should be left as is.

Realistically, Infantry/MG ammo should be a concern for many scenarios and types of battles. Perhaps for an average battle (not 'infantry slugfests') ammo should only become an issue for the platoon/s that was the most engaged. Currently, this is not the case.

Ideally we would have some sort of slider button to adjust ammo loadouts for certain unit classes. It would be nice to have the choice to adjust ammo levels according to preferance/ scenario.

An ammo reduction wouldn't be only to reduce z-fire over-use, but also to make ammo conservation (for infantry) a more common issue on the SPWW2 battlefield.

The fact that re-supply may be tedius, will help reduce z-fire abuse. Also they have to pay a price to buy ordinance to use heavy z-fire, and ammo units are vulnerable to artillery etc.

The over-use of artillery is often and easily avoided by a pre-game agreement that limits arty to 10-15% of buy points.
There must be a similar (practical) way to limit z-fire, but I haven't thought of it yet.

I agree with Blitzkreigs post that z-fire is realistic, and should not be turned off, but it negatively effects gameplay when it's overused.

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Cross

I guess we have to remember that this is only a game that attempts to simulate certain aspects of warfare. With that in mind, we can legalistically adhere to accurate historical ammo loadouts and actually make the game less realistic.

In principle, yes, with regards to ammo loadouts, I disagree.
Seems to me that some players are simply understanding war like the British pre-1914 General Staff, that got caught with their pants down when faced with the ammo expenditure of modern war. Of course, their German 1939 counterparts made the same mistake, resulting in the German Army running into ammo shortages early in WW2.

Modern war revolves around firepower and I think the game reflects that quite well.

Realistically, Infantry/MG ammo should be a concern for many scenarios and types of battles. Perhaps for an average battle (not 'infantry slugfests') ammo should only become an issue for the platoon/s that was the most engaged. Currently, this is not the case.

....

An ammo reduction wouldn't be only to reduce z-fire over-use, but also to make ammo conservation (for infantry) a more common issue on the SPWW2 battlefield.

With a nod to Mareks comment, how often did WWII infantry run out of small arms ammunition in combat? Is it really something that occured on a regular basis in battles rarely lasting more than an hour - about the max. length of SPWW2 battles?

From reading, I can recall it happening for units cut off from supply, fighting for hours and even days or when facing an exceptionally target rich enviroment as Marek pointed out. But normally, during an average battle of rather short duration?

Perhaps comming up with some historical examples would help make the case and convince us sceptics

Ideally we would have some sort of slider button to adjust ammo loadouts for certain unit classes. It would be nice to have the choice to adjust ammo levels according to preferance/ scenario.

I'm sure we would all welcome more preference options to fit our particular interpretations of WWII warfare, but on the other hand, there are quite a few already and I rarely use any of them.

In practical terms, it really isn't unit classes which should have their ammo loads reduced, but weapon types. Reducing the ammo load of an infantry unit would also reduce the number of handgrenades, anti-tank rifle ammo, panzerfausts or light mortar ammo.
To achieve the desired effect, the only small arms and MG ammo loads should be adjusted. But even that would be difficult, as weapon classes are not really precise enought for this. For example, class 2, secondary weapons include both LMGs and handgrenades and class 3, team weapons, include both mortars and machineguns.

Even if one considered a preference for adjusting ammo loads desirable, I'm at a loss to see how it could reasonably be implemented in the game?

The over-use of artillery is often and easily avoided by a pre-game agreement that limits arty to 10-15% of buy points.
There must be a similar (practical) way to limit z-fire, but I haven't thought of it yet.

I agree with Blitzkreigs post that z-fire is realistic, and should not be turned off, but it negatively effects gameplay when it's overused

I'm sure those who "overuse" Z-fire do not think that they "overuse" anything. And this is, it seems to me, the core of the matter: That people just play the game differently. And if there are players with whom you cannot agree on how it is to be played - dont play with them.
It seems to me that most people agree that Z-fire is a realistic tactic whether it is used to simulate recon by fire or suppression by un-aimed fire.
The real "problems" seem only related to that fact that it is "boring" to watch and make replays take too long. And it is only so, it seems to me, because it results in a lot of firing - which is not in itself unrealistic.

(btw, couldn't you just reduce message delay and animation to make replays shorter?)

Anyway, it is up to the powers that be to adress it, if they think it is an issue. I just want to make that argument why I dont see it as an issue at all.

cbo