OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[thejeff]

So God cannot forgive? The sins must be paid for? He is incapable of just forgiving them?

Why did someone have to pay a price for all of that sin?
If someones hurts me, then repents, I don't have to choose between beating them up and beating myself up, I can just forgive. But God can't. Someone must pay. So he hurts himself.
To me, this is nonsense.

In a ancient world view, where religion is all about sacrificing to propitiate the gods, it does make sense. In a comparative mythology kind of way, I can see where the idea comes from.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by thejeff

So God cannot forgive? The sins must be paid for? He is incapable of just forgiving them?

God did "just" forgive them. He's capable of doing it, and He did it. He paid the price for it.

Originally Posted by thejeff

Why did someone have to pay a price for all of that sin?
If someones hurts me, then repents, I don't have to choose between beating them up and beating myself up, I can just forgive. But God can't. Someone must pay. So he hurts himself.
To me, this is nonsense.

No, all forgiveness has a price. When the sin is not very great, the price is not very high. If I step on your toe, you can forgive me easily. On the other hand, if I massacre your family with a chainsaw, you might find forgiveness a little more difficult. The worse the sin, the harder it is to forgive.

It's only reasonable that the sins of the entire human race -- past, present, and future -- would require a whole lot of forgiveness. That much forgiveness can't come cheap.

[JimMorrison]

Tifone, did you just reference the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[thejeff]

Ramen!

[Tifone]

RAmen to you, my pastafarian brothers touched by His Noodly Appendage. You caught me

At the risk of seeming offensive (and not wanting actually to be so), I sometimes used our great FSM in real religious debates.
The fact that the words "God", "Jesus", "Bible" (among others) have become so strong in the centuries in my society, bring sometimes my debating counterparts to believe that everything said in those names must be auto-legitimating to me, FAR ABOVE my own intellect and reason (the best thing all of us have IMHO)

Me:"Why should I oppose (i.e.) gay marriage? It doesn't damage me and I want those people to be happy like everybody else!"
Other:"Because GOD (<-loud and deep voice) said it is an abomination!"
Me:"If I tell you everybody must do everything I want because the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (<-louder and deeper voice) told so, would you just accept it?!"

It can be very confusing for the adverse party and remind him/her that "God" is just a name, and saying this word loudly doesn't make his/her arguments truer than mine, if mine are just more reasonable (as I believe they are of course, or I wouldn't defend them - may I be right or wrong, the time the better judge )


PS on a totally unrelated topic... FSM for Dom3 Pretender God!!

[JimMorrison]

But but..... Didn't you know? Everything other than the one true god (how do we know which is which though?) is simply one of the infinite faces of the devil, trying to lure you away from the faith?

Of course, if you interpret the bible differently than I do, that means you are going to hell, and therefore you are also led astray by satan. By proxy, all Christians+Catholics are devil worshippers, because their particular belief system differs from another who claims the one true god.


I also worship the one true god. But what he told ME was that I didn't need to smite the differently-believing, I only needed to tell them to calm down and be quiet while we endeavor to resolve things on a human level. He was mum on the issue of heaven, but implied that more of us will be happy in the end, if we strive only to get along - as our top priority. He didn't say anything about the "costs" of getting along, but it seems like our current paradigm of NOT getting along, is costing us billions of lives and souls, and that's a bit steep.

[Kristoffer O]

This is a rather long tread by now. I believe there was something I wanted to add to the discussion but somehow it drowned in fifty other posts or so

I want to thank SlipperyJim for his patience and dedication. This interesting thread would probably have have died without your continous efforts.

Personally I'm an atheist, unfortunately. I believe I would feel better if I found God. Unfortunately I find it unlikely that I will find any god, unless I'm directly approached by God.

Once I considered Islam to be the religion I found most attractive. If God has a plan it, why not tell people how society is supposed to be organized. Islam is quite integrated in society and the Quran says something about how society should be.

Later on I have tended to appreciate christianity more. Mostly since I view the core functional message of christianity as being: Just be gentle and love everyone.

I have been less fond of buddhism (theravada more than mahayana) and new age since I consider their salvation to be individualistic. But this was when I was young and less ... meek. Now I consider myself quite at a loss regarding the views of practicing buddhists. My only personal experience with buddhism is with members of Sokka Gakkai, and they are not that representative.

In a way I am partial to institutionalized religion, where there is a TRUTH. If there is a God , there is a truth, and thus there should be a great plan for life, society and the world. Thus I consider fundamentalists right on Gods track.

On the other hand I'm quite opposed to fundamentalist teachings, since I find them opposed to some of the values I adhere to. Mainly because of the interpretation of what the TRUTH is. Anyone who claims to know a truth is a potentially dangerous man. I dislike truth. That makes me a postmodernist. I strongly dislike postmodernists.

I view religion a as a tool that should guide and aid people respect and love others, aid people in trouble, inspire people to aid and help and build and compose and do good stuff to others and society.

My problem is that I want religion to be something else than I want my own devotion to be, should I become religious.

I should go for messiah-hood. That would solve my problems.
I'm actually halfway there. I already have students calling me Jesus, even yelling 'hello Jesus' from the other side of the street the other day. I had to smile


Hmm, not sure if I said what I intended when I started, but I sad something


Edit: I seem to have left junk and misspellings and stuff in my text, but I'm not in the mood of fixing it. You get my meaning anyway I hope.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

Personally I'm an atheist, unfortunately. I believe I would feel better if I found God. Unfortunately I find it unlikely that I will find any god, unless I'm directly approached by God.

Thanks for your openness. May I ask: Why would you feel better if you found God? Is something missing that you believe that God could provide, if you could only find Him?

I can't speak for other gods, but I can tell you that God works through His people. If you want to find God, go spend some time with a Christian whom you know and respect.

Of course, it's tricky to pick the right one. As a very wise man once said:
"The best thing about Christianity is Christians. The worst thing about Christianity is Christians."

We can be a very motley crew. Still, there are some good-hearted Christians in the world, and I'm willing to bet that there's (at least) one good-hearted Christian who will be happy to help you in your search for God.

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

Later on I have tended to appreciate christianity more. Mostly since I view the core functional message of christianity as being: Just be gentle and love everyone.

While that message is certainly one of Christ's teachings, it isn't the core message of Christianity. Many other great teachers and wise men have told us to be nice to one another, and it hasn't stuck all that well.

The core message of Christianity is that you can't do it. Thankfully, you don't have to do it. Christ offers to do it through you. Christians don't love other people in order to please Jesus. (When we're loving, that is....) Christians love other people because Jesus lives inside us, and His love shines through us.

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

In a way I am partial to institutionalized religion, where there is a TRUTH. If there is a God , there is a truth, and thus there should be a great plan for life, society and the world. Thus I consider fundamentalists right on Gods track.

Good points.

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

On the other hand I'm quite opposed to fundamentalist teachings, since I find them opposed to some of the values I adhere to. Mainly because of the interpretation of what the TRUTH is. Anyone who claims to know a truth is a potentially dangerous man. I dislike truth. That makes me a postmodernist. I strongly dislike postmodernists.

You're a post-modernist, and yet you strongly dislike post-modernists? Wow, that must be interesting.

Post-modernism is a self-defeating philosophy. The moment that you claim that there is no such thing as absolute truth, you have made a claim that you believe to be absolutely true. It's serious doublethink. It's like saying, "Everything I say is a lie." But if everything is a lie, then that statement must be a lie, which would mean that not every statement I say is a lie.....

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

I view religion a as a tool that should guide and aid people respect and love others, aid people in trouble, inspire people to aid and help and build and compose and do good stuff to others and society.

No, that's ethics. Ethics without religion is perfectly plausible. You don't need God to do all of those good things you mentioned.

Religion is about humanity trying to meet God.
Christianity is about God coming to be with His people.

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

My problem is that I want religion to be something else than I want my own devotion to be, should I become religious.

I'm not sure that I'm understanding you here. What is the difference between your own devotion and what you want religion to be?

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

I should go for messiah-hood. That would solve my problems.
I'm actually halfway there. I already have students calling me Jesus, even yelling 'hello Jesus' from the other side of the street the other day. I had to smile

Does that mean that you have a beard? You can't be Jesus without a beard, you know.

Gandalf's avatar makes me think that he looks a little like the stereotypical Jesus....

[Kristoffer O]

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

Thanks for your openness. May I ask: Why would you feel better if you found God? Is something missing that you believe that God could provide, if you could only find Him?

I can't speak for other gods, but I can tell you that God works through His people. If you want to find God, go spend some time with a Christian whom you know and respect.

Of course, it's tricky to pick the right one. As a very wise man once said:
"The best thing about Christianity is Christians. The worst thing about Christianity is Christians."

We can be a very motley crew. Still, there are some good-hearted Christians in the world, and I'm willing to bet that there's (at least) one good-hearted Christian who will be happy to help you in your search for God.

I assume that I am materialistic enough not to become a believer with less than a direct intervention from God. If God intervened and gave me a revelation he would exist and I would feel good and happy as I had found him. If I had a deep religious experience based on psychological processes I would likely be as happy.

Unfortunately I do not know any christian that well. And I don't think he or she could give me a deep religious experience. I might just as well become a buddhist or a muslim. I have more contact with muslims than christians these days, and the leap of faith is probably slightly easier. Islam is not as demanding with regards to theology I'd say. On the other hand the leap of faith in regards to islam would be greater since I'm not socialized into it. Not that I have a christian upbringing, but I have more preconceptions regarding christianity than islamic traditions.

Likely there are good hearted Jews and muslims that would gladly aid me as well. A couple of years ago I had regular visits from mormons for a while. Mostly to get to know their beliefs and traditions. They were aware that I didn't intend to convert, but were glad to visit and inform me. I suppose they hoped for me to convert eventually.

While that message is certainly one of Christ's teachings, it isn't the core message of Christianity. Many other great teachers and wise men have told us to be nice to one another, and it hasn't stuck all that well.

The core message of Christianity is that you can't do it. Thankfully, you don't have to do it. Christ offers to do it through you. Christians don't love other people in order to please Jesus. (When we're loving, that is....) Christians love other people because Jesus lives inside us, and His love shines through us.


Good points.


You're a post-modernist, and yet you strongly dislike post-modernists? Wow, that must be interesting.

Post-modernism is a self-defeating philosophy. The moment that you claim that there is no such thing as absolute truth, you have made a claim that you believe to be absolutely true. It's serious doublethink. It's like saying, "Everything I say is a lie." But if everything is a lie, then that statement must be a lie, which would mean that not every statement I say is a lie.....


No, that's ethics. Ethics without religion is perfectly plausible. You don't need God to do all of those good things you mentioned.

Religion is about humanity trying to meet God.
Christianity is about God coming to be with His people.

I did not say core message. I said core functional message. What I consider the societal function of christianity to be. What's it's use to society.

Regarding postmodernism se my earlier post.

I'm not sure that I'm understanding you here. What is the difference between your own devotion and what you want religion to be?

If I did believe I would have a belief system and a faith etc. Something personal. I called theis devotion.
With religion I mean the institutionalized faith, with traditions, beliefs etc. Faith as expressed in society.

Does that mean that you have a beard? You can't be Jesus without a beard, you know.

Gandalf's avatar makes me think that he looks a little like the stereotypical Jesus....

I do have a beard, as well as long hair. I look far more 'Jesus' than Gandalf do

[Edi]

Hmm, would it be appropriate to say that you are a spiritual person, but not truly a religious one, Kristoffer?