OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[SlipperyJim]

Whoops, we seem to have cast Growing Fury on the Badger....

I can't possibly respond to everything in this entire post. Actually, I've suddenly become very busy, so this may be my last post for a while.

I'll try to pick out a few main points to address. Starting with the first point:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

This is the kind of thing that always bothers me about religious debates-everybody's always trying to convince everybody else that they're wrong. Here's a thought: You're right. They're *also* right. Nobody's wrong. You're both right *at the same time*

That's why it's called a "belief system" instead of a "fact system".

Just shut the **** up and deal with it.

Postmodernism is unsustainable, as I mentioned to KO. Everyone can't be right, because many of our beliefs are mutually exclusive.

For example, I believe in the God of the Bible: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Atheists believe there is no god at all. We can't both be correct. One does not equal Zero.

There's either something (or Someone) greater than us, or there isn't. If there is something (or Someone) greater than us, then that something (or Someone) must have some sort of identity. There must be facts we can learn and truths we can explore.

But we won't get anywhere if we continue to indulge the postmodern fallacy that everyone is right. Everyone cannot be right. It is entirely possible that everyone is wrong, but that's a different question.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

If you must insist your ways are *more* right than everyone else's, if yours is truly the One True Path, then simply trust that by the time this Universe ends, everything will have worked itself out to your satisfaction. It's called *FAITH* for a reason! And the reason religions have caused so many problems over the years isn't because of flaws within the religions themselves-it's because of peoples' insecurities and doubts about their beliefs.

Read the Book of Revelation some time. The world will end, and God will work everything according to His plan (not mine).

The problem is not my doubts in God's plan. On the contrary, God has made His plan perfectly clear (at least in some respects), and that plan requires me to take action. If I don't want my family, friends, and loved ones to spend eternity apart from God, I have an obligation to be a witness to them. More about that later....

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

The whole Christian Missionary thing really ticks me off, though. If you really want to convince people that your beliefs and your way of living is better than theirs, then be their friend. Help them improve their lives. Show them compassion and strength of character.

Don't destroy their culture and way of life that they've spent hundreds and thousands of years to develope, just because you can. That's not being a Christian, that's being an arrogant, unfeeling, uncaring bastard, and spreading the very Word of God like it was an infectious disease. I don't care if their kids are starving and they can't grow food and don't wear a lot of clothing. Don't rely on God to feed them someday in Heaven, after they've already starved to death, God's name on their dying lips. Just feed the kids, teach the parents how to farm, deal with the fact that cultural differences aren't the same as moral deficiencies, and shut up about it.

Missionaries don't usually do what you're claiming they do. Missionaries do help the poor, feed the hungry, and tend to the sick. They do all of the good things that you're saying they should do, so I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be.

The North American Mission Board is the missionary arm of my denomination. Go explore the website and see the sorts of things that Southern Baptists do. For example, we're very involved in helping people who were affected by Hurricane Ike. In addition to the NAMB, my church also sponsors missionaries that build houses for poor people in Central America, install clean water filters in Africa, and provide free medical care to poor tribal folks in various undeveloped countries.

If you don't like Southern Baptists, check out Habitat for Humanity, which is an ecumenical Christian mission to build houses for poor people.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

If you want to introduce them to Christianity, wait until they come to you, personally, and ask you about it. If you do enough to show them you care, and represent yourself and your religion well, chances are they'll want to know more about you and what you stand for. If they don't, then consider it a test of your faith. Do more, give more, and shut up about it.

That's a great philosophy if the Christian worldview is utterly false. On the other hand, if Jesus was right, then we have an obligation to help people spiritually in addition to helping them in material ways.

(I promised I'd get back to our obligation to witness.)

To put it another way: If all you do is feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and tend to the sick without ever telling them about Jesus, then all you've accomplished is to send well-fed, well-dressed, healthy people to Hell.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

And I have a real problem with Christians going around saying "God is in control. God is in complete charge of my life". Step in front of a speeding bus sometime, and then you can tell me all about how God has got a really dark sense of irony. God is in charge of angels. Your god gave you free will. That makes you *better* than angels, and closer to God. To believe that God is in control of you is to be in agreement with Satan, not God. It's your belief system, not mine.

We do have free will. As Christians, we must surrender our will to God. That's what Jesus did in the Garden of Gethsemane, and that's what He wants us to do.

However, our free will is limited. Essentially, we have to pick to whom we shall be enslaved. That's the point that Paul made in Romans 6. We are all born slaves to sin. By the grace of God, we can choose to surrender our wills to Him. When we do so, we are set free from sin and we become slaves to righteousness.

Before someone flips out, the neat "trick" to becoming a slave to righteousness is that it's our only way to become free. (That's almost Zen, really.) Surrendering to God opens all sorts of new possibilities in one's life. God has shown me things that I could have never imagined before I knew Him. A life of faith is a life of adventure.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

That said, I understand that it may be difficult to act as a true representative of such a potent entity, that it may be impossible for you to discribe the true beauty of your faith in terms which don't make my guts turn to jelly, and I've led a hard enough life, so if the higher power you've put in charge of your life can make my life better and easier, I'm willing to accept all the help I can get, but I'm going to need proof--in the form of cash. After all, Christianity already had 1 shot at my soul, and it blew it.

So if you're willing to take a *real* leap of faith in God and Humanity, and send me $50,000 in U.S. currency to prove to me God's generosity to His faithful(what's money, compared to the strength of your religion? Small bills, please-and no consecutive serial numbers.), then I'm prepaired to consider your arguments, and to accept your money, and to spend it, verily.

I don't have $50,000, so I'll skip over the rest of your offer.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Obviously, not all Christians are missionaries, not all missionaries are poisonous, and the Christian message isn't always "You Will Be Assimilated".

The Church is not the Borg. Christianity does not require you to become a certain race, abandon your language, or turn your back on your culture. There are Christians in every culture on Earth.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

We're all adults here, and it's behaviour that we should have left behind with the 3rd grade--and good riddance! We're just putting a new spin on "My dad can beat up your dad", using bigger words and concepts, and pretending that it somehow makes it all so luminous and deep. It's a bull**** argument that we continue to beat like the well and truly dead horse that it is, because it's easier to sit here and argue about than it is to identify real problems that face all of us, work together openly and respectfully to find a solution, and to then take that solution and act on it. It's fear and distrust, and lack of real hope and faith in ourselves and our abilities, and we let those things separate us.

If your point is that we should all work together to face common problems, then I agree with you completely. We should never let our religious differences get in the way of being good people.

However, if your point is that we should just table all of our differences and pretend that we agree ... then I can't agree with you. But there should be no need to do so!

If you want to feed a hungry person, and I want to feed a hungry person, then there's no reason that we should fight about who gets to feed hungry people. Let's both feed the hungry. As we feed the hungry, I'll be telling them about Jesus. You may choose to tell them about something else, or not to tell them anything. That's your choice. But here's my point: Both of us can still feed hungry people! "My" hungry person will simply get an introduction to the Gospel to go with his meal. Why should that bother anyone?

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

We have enough reasons to argue and fight and hate and resent one another, as human beings.
We don't need our spiritual sides and nobler natures-and arguably those things which are the *best* parts of us-to give us yet another reason for antagonism.

Agreed. I think we've done an excellent job of being good neighbors right here on this very discussion thread. Nobody has shouted at anyone else. Nobody hates anyone else. (At least, I hope not!) We're discussing one of the most contentious topics of all time, and we're managing to be polite & respectful while we do it.

Tolerance doesn't require us to all agree with each other. Instead, tolerance allows us to disagree with each other as long as we are respectful while we do it.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

We're all on this world together, at the same time, and we'd be smarter and stronger and better, if we just helped one another out, without also asking that they become more like us.

Agreed. Shalom!

[Bwaha]

To anyone who tried the experiment of finding Jesus,(see my previous post) If you got the tingle,(indwelling of the Holy Ghost) and have any questions please pm me. These guys who want to argue are missing the simplicity of the whole message. Read first John, all of it. Its small. Enjoy.

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

These guys who want to argue are missing the simplicity of the whole message.

Hey there Bwaha

I am a guy "wanting to argue" - I'd call debating more appropriate. As you may have read, I already have some knowledge of the Bible too.
And I just can't agree that the "whole message" of the book and religion is simple. That's why we're discussing it in a ton of posts from different points of views here, and we're just scratching the surface. And that's why Bible has been discussed for centuries at this moment and still people have plenty of doubts.
The message is big and difficult and has many faces which go to involve all the aspects of a person's life - a message which for this reason may be shared or not, accepted or not I don't, JimMorrison doesn't, you and SlipperyJim do, Ich does (with some reserves AFAIK ), and we're all analyzing it. But its' not simple ^_^

Best wishes

[Bwaha]

I agree with you on the depth of the subject. That being said, I know some people were touched thru this discussion. Those people need the message kept simple because they are babies. I won't go into the higher mysteries because it will confuse them.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

I agree with you on the depth of the subject. That being said, I know some people were touched thru this discussion. Those people need the message kept simple because they are babies. I won't go into the higher mysteries because it will confuse them.

I really like you Bwaha, but I'm sure you could have put that a bit more politely. I've seen and experienced things that would blow your mind and test your faith - but I've not come here to condescend to anyone, just to discuss.

<3

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

Read first John, all of it.

It has always baffled me why so many of my fellow Christians recommend that people start with the Gospel of John. John is the most opaque and allegorical of the Gospels, far and away the hardest of the four to grasp the message of.

If someone is curious about Jesus, I recommend they start with the Gospel of Mark. It's the shortest and most straightforward telling of Jesus' ministry (and believed to be the earliest written down). What I'd recommend after Mark would depend on what questions it brought up for you.

[Bwaha]

Hi, sorry to be so short in my posts. What I asked people to look at was the chapter named First John. My internet connection is rather bad, and thats why my posts are so short. Today I'm off work so I can chat for a while. Tifone I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. I apologize if I did. My reference to babies was a due to the fact that when you are "born again" you are changed into a new person. Here is my reasoning :

First Peter [1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
[2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

And next:
Hebrews 5 12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[13] For every one that use th milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I was expressing a doctrine. Yah, I know its rather obscure but I feel its important to be correct in this subject. One reason that "we" have to share our belief is:
Revelation 12 [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So one of key components of my belief is I have to share the "truth" with anyone who asks. I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone, after all God have given us the right to choose to believe or not. So who am I to tell someone they have to believe. The choice is for each person to decide.

[JaghataiKhan]

Since every side is deep entrenched in their beliefs, I'll drop 2 cents and disappear and never visit this thread again.

Any God that takes people that heard his message and accept it into heaven, despite other,non-grace-saved people choosing to be benefical, charitable and all other "good" side of the good-evil morality scale(which is a pretty much relative scale anyway), despite some of the the grace accepting people having horrific deeds, despite many people not having the chance to even see this message, into heaven without even punishing them for their misdeeds to even the scales, and throws the rest into hell forever, is an extremely disgusting, sick monstrosity with whom no covenant can be made, no word can be taken seriously, no mercy can be expected, and its covenant must be abjured from the rest of humanity as diseased of the mind, its book be eradicated and never be copied again, its laws erased once and for all, and its followers prevented to breed until their minds are free from the disease.

Save your excuses,I won't hear them! "But you can't understand the workings of the grace!" I'm glad I can't, as I have yet to ponder what convoluted Lovecraftian logic allows an all loving,omni-everything God to even start existing or start existance, yet alone throwing innocent non-Christians(which mostly happen to be non-white as well, Manifest Destiny anyone?) forever into Hell for...eternal torment, which is something even Hitler,Stalin,Erzsebet Bathory or George W. Bush doesn't deserve.

P.S if you think I made a dish of copypasta, being a non-native English speaker to formulate these words, **** you, whomever even considers it.