OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[Aapeli]

Free will is relative. We have it, in theory, but, in theory, we dont. Extreme relativism is my favourite philosophy. I mean, in theory anything goes. But anywho I dont like to think we dont have a free will, cause that would just be too simple and too boring.

[Imp]

Firstly I am not a beliver as such though have read decent sections of 3 religious tomes.
While not believing them I do think they are literary masterpieces they all say the same thing & the message is simple.
They are codes of conduct, a way of life what you should aspire to be written people living in hard times where doing the right thing was not as easy as now. What you think of as hardships are things that encroach on your spare time, perhaps paying a bill, big frigin deal.
Somebody qouted

Sorry for the rant, we are just on the topic, again I'm not really saying ppl should stop believing, believe whatever you want if it makes you feel good and in peace with the others

As I said not a beliver but this is exactly the wrong use for religion, using it to prop you up & make you feel good means neither are you its something you should be striving for. In fact a true follower makes his life harder as persicuted lives in poverty etc because they make sacrifices things to help others. Trying to live by the "code" of your religios book is what makes you faithful & you cant be selective & ignore the hardest bits they are probably the most important.

As I said have read big chunks of 3 plus bits of others but lets take the Christian bible & employ some logic for a moment on if it should be taken literaly or as a guide.
Is it the word of God if so it got lost, how.

Firstly take any story translate it & pass it down over a period of time. That thing we now call spin happens, its impossible for it not to. Just translating someone puts his interpritation on it.
Christianity borrows heavily from earlier religions a simple example & there are very many we celebrate Christs birthday when? On his Birthday no on a previos religions Christ is ignored. Start reading folks lots of these books are the same stories with diffrent actors.

Even if you ignore all this there is one more problem, the saying "(absolute) power corrupts" seems to hold true. People with power seem to lose some morals.

The Catholic Church for instance to name but one managed to twist the context of the bible (easily done with anything) & decide going to war in the name of God was good.
What sorry is that really the message
Is the church run as it should be trying to help people keep on the path or & call me Mr Cynical here is it run as a business. Are they worried about falling attendance because more people will fail when the time comes or do they want more bums on pews because donations have dropped?
How rich are they, Vatican State thats a country & despite the church being rich do they help out when there are disasters or keep the coffers full & send a few people.
Over emphasising here but does the Catholic church try & do as it preaches or does it tend to be selective in its followings. They seem to have broken the mold of living in hardship giving up things to help others, yes they give up a few but its selective & not exactly a harsh life.
With that in mind even if I am wrong & the bible did not get lost in translation by accident can you trust these guys interpritation on it.

On a truly sad note the reason we need these books is obvious & the people that wrote them never would have if they had realised that they would be twisted to be what?
A shout for war.
Yes the human race is lost it deserves its fate.

[Imp]

Sorry but I have read more of these posts not all mind.

Surely the mark of whether you are a good man has nothing to do with race religion. etc.
If some one has suffered missfortune & you go out of your way to help or share what you have leaving yourself short is that not more a mark of a good person.
Race & religion generaly make you a worse man if you are the sort of pesrson that takes them in to account rather than just treating the person before you as just that a person. If you actually happen to have picked the right God from those available I would also like to know how you earned the right to judge. I don't think its your call somehow.
I would also say modern society is bad look at western culture its collapsing. Family values, what sorry whens the last time you helped your neigbour, who lives 5 doors away from you, think of there name even let alone know them. Of course not you are living a cellular life community has died all you want is a bigger Plasma or car.
Sell my Plasma to help someone out you are having a laugh, of course the money you spent on it could keep several hundred people alive in africa for a few months. But hey its not my problem the goverments should do something about it.
Wake up people you elected them based on what exactly, so they are going to do as you do because that keeps them in power.
Off topic but all nations politics are lost because a big part of the vote is probably the sympathy bit, you can relate to them. How do you seriosly expect a guy who is an ex farmer, failed in the oil business despite millions being bunged at him to suddenly be capable of running a country & making sensible decisions. Not aiming at one nation they are all the same mine included & power corrupts remember.
You want a better world get off your *** & do something about it forget all segregation for whatever reason. At the end of it all you will know you tried & hey just perhaps somebody was watching. Strangely this person whether he believes in God or not actually strayed terribly close to the teachings of them all. Quite possibly he did it without wanting something in return just because he was brought up with a sense of values & managed to stick to them. It may have made him feel good about himself from time to time to.
Sorry for the spelling & not having ago but a few weeks ago I helped at the local school doing some work because my friends children go there & it was for kids.
The people there wer amazed I had given up a day (doing what exactly) to come & help. 6 parents had bothered to show up which kind of shows how much they value there kids futures let alone someone elses.
Society what society if it does not help me directly aint doing it.
Welcome to hell you live in it.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Imp

I would also say modern society is bad look at western culture its collapsing.

People have been saying basically the same thing at least since the Roman Empire passed its peak. "Western culture" has been "collapsing" since before the idea was coined, yet we're still here.

How do you seriosly expect a guy who is an ex farmer, failed in the oil business despite millions being bunged at him to suddenly be capable of running a country & making sensible decisions.

This is a terribly condescending slam on farmers. If you think running a farm doesn't require "sensible decisions", you should try working on one. Jimmy Carter was an ex-farmer, too, and many of the people who dislike Bush liked him.

[capnq]

This thread is itself evidence for the resurrection of the dead. ;-)

Originally Posted by Imp

Even if you ignore all this there is one more problem, the saying "(absolute) power corrupts" seems to hold true. People with power seem to lose some morals.

From the science fiction novel "The Postman":

Originally Posted by David Brin

It's said that 'power corrupts', but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power. When they do act, they think of it as service, which has limits. The tyrant, though, seeks mastery, for which he is insatiable, implacable.

(BTW, the book regarded far better than Costner's movie; I haven't seen the movie, but the original novella was pretty good.)

With that in mind even if I am wrong & the bible did not get lost in translation by accident can you trust these guys interpritation on it.

One of the fundamental tenants of Protestantism (or at least Lutheranism, which is my own faith) is that the Holy Spirit assists the believer in interpreting the Scripture. One does not have to rely upon a professionally trained intermediary such as a priest to learn from it.

(That still doesn't guarantee that the believer will always interpret it correctly, though.)

[Imp]

One of the fundamental tenants of Protestantism (or at least Lutheranism, which is my own faith) is that the Holy Spirit assists the believer in interpreting the Scripture. One does not have to rely upon a professionally trained intermediary such as a priest to learn from it.

(That still doesn't guarantee that the believer will always interpret it correctly, though.)

Now this seems another stumbling block to me.
I can understand free will rather than have the message forced on us we are allowed to make a choice, its then our call & we get judged on our actions.
But if I have not understood it correctly how can I make a rational decision, also & nit picking does the holy spirit only help once you are a believer requiring a blind leap of faith or does he try & assist you to interprit it correctly & so become a believer?

An extreme example of misreading or more likely based on what you are told.
A badly educated & or uninteligent person is decieved by someone who is better educated/smarter into straping a bomb to himself in the name of religion.
Now am I wrong in thinking this is a true believer who is willing to sacrifice his life for his religion so is definetly a religous man.
His only error is being poorly educated/thick he is not a bad man that is the guy that recruited him.

As I said making sure the message is understood correctly is important.

[Imp]

On the farm wholy agree it is a buisness & no idea how he did but when he tried moving up to oil failed miserably despite status giving him breaks. Now you want him to take on something bigger.
Like I say not aiming at him specificly most people do not get in for the right reasons.
Understandable really you do not know what it takes to run a country so you are electing someone to do so based on .....
The one thing I can think of is good management skills & a proven track record

Chalk one on the myth, learning stuff if nothing else.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Imp

Like I say not aiming at him specificly most people do not get in for the right reasons.
Understandable really you do not know what it takes to run a country so you are electing someone to do so based on .....
The one thing I can think of is good management skills & a proven track record

< cynic >
Well, there's where your misunderstanding is coming from. We elect people primarily based on their ability to talk other people into giving them enough money to run for office.
< /cynic >

[Imp]

And that shows the fundamental flaw in our political system
Once saw a quote cant remember who that said something like 5% of poloticians are doing the job for the right reasons (i.e. not self gain) 5% actually have the abilty to do the job. The chances of somebody falling into both categories are remote so we can deduce most of the time no one is capable & they would never be heard anyway.
Mind even if thought I was capable I would not fancy it.
Good stepping stone for getting you on the board of big companies though