PPB Rebalance Poll

[rextorres]

Once PPBs come into the picture no one going up against the PPBs is going to have shields - they would be using armor - I know that's what I would do. So these tests lack a little realism.

Certain weapons are great for different strategic situations.

In a very small universe such as Universe Cup where a game Lasts 50 turns or less the DUC would be all that is needed. Anyone who goes after PPBs will get beat because the 100,000 points they used to start researching PPBs will be used for sensors, armor, or ecm be their opponent.

In any game Lasting over 90 turns anyone who sticks with PPBs again will get beat by long range APB Xs or better.

The point that people seem to keep making is that PPBs are so powerful there is no point in developing other main weapons - I disagree. If you go with PPBs and you don't knock out your opponent then you run the risk of having a VERY less effective weapon in the later game. In fact the Long Range APBs are so much better that the extra research is probably justified.

PPBs are great for a middle length game. The challenge IMO is to figure out if your in one.

Instead of going back and forth on the PPBs - How about this. I've always wanted to use a missile only race, but wouldn't dare in PBW. I think the missile system needs more tweaking than the PPBs.

[Rollo]

First of all let me say that I typed this post yesterday (May 29), but then couldn't get to the board all day. So it will not include answers to the latest Posts:

Whew, lots of answers to type. Good thing the board is currently down (Zulu 11:00). That gives me some more time to type, before even more Posts show up .

Andres - Phased weapons doing only half damage against phased shields is a good suggestion. That would certainly put more emphasis on PPB being a mid-game weapon.

Phoenix - Sorry I left out the damage. I figured those numbers would be pretty well known. Didn't want to state the obvious and wanted to give a new perspective (cost). No ill intent here. My point is: Just looking at damage without considering the cost, the PPB seems a lot stronger than it really is.

Also don't forget that not all people play with medium research cost. At low cost APB XII does not cost millions more, just about twice as much. Also at low cost you can have APB VI or Shields IV just for the 100k that opens up PPB.

Quikngruvn - Yeah, I also noted that weird progression of PPB. Rather than increasing the levels to eight, I would just tone down the lower levels. I still think PPB V is balanced, but PPB II is not. So here is a suggestion for the lower levels:

I 30 25 25 20 -- --
II 35 30 30 25 25 --
III 45 40 40 35 35 --
IV 50 45 45 40 40 40
V 60 55 55 50 50 50

Along with the raise of base research cost from 5k to 10k that could do the job (just one note: PPB III would now compare to DUC V damage-wise against unshielded opponents). A further increase in cost could also be a turn-off, but I wouldn't go as far as one third or one half extra. 20% extra cost (PPB V for 600 min) would be more than enough, IMHO (and with the changes just mentioned, I'd rather go without no additional cost).

Tenryu - Your suggestion makes PPB waaayyy too weak IMHO. For a 100k "admission fee" you get a PPB I with damage 15 10 00 00 ...? No offense, but that is just worthless. Using your system you'd have to have at least PPB V before even considering using them.

My dearest M.B. - How can I compare PPB V to APB V or VI? Simply because that is what you get for the same research prize. I thought that would be appropriate. I do know that the APB does less damage than PPB at those levels, but APB V (plus 100k of research to use for other things) is a good comparison. But I made one mistake: I only compared PPB V to the APB. I agree that PPB II is overpowered (see my reply and suggestion above). I agree that the cost of radioactives is not important, although I admit that I had some serious rad problems in some of my games...,but that was just because I didn't pay attention .

I guess that challenge is directed at me. Your idea of duking it out is totally childish, immature, will not prove anything, nor will anybody change their opinion because of it. That is exactly why I love it ! Anytime, anyplace... I love playing mano-a-mano and have never met you in a game, this should be fun.

Hope, I didn't forget anybody...

Rollo

[oleg]

Just a random thought:

The new ionic dispensor that does NOT skip shield
can actually balance PPB !!!

Imagine that your are against somebody who uses
normal shields (say lavel 4). Now, if you use PPB, ID as a secondary weapon is useless: it should down shields first ! If however you use APB/MB and ID...

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by oleg:
Just a random thought:

The new ionic dispensor that does NOT skip shield
can actually balance PPB !!!

Imagine that your are against somebody who uses
normal shields (say lavel 4). Now, if you use PPB, ID as a secondary weapon is useless: it should down shields first ! If however you use APB/MB and ID...

I'm not sure if it was a serious comment, right?

Just in case that it was, I can bet that probably I will use PPB/ID and try to destroy the other ships before my shields are down... And considering that I will have PPB, my opponent probably will have only armors (or mostly armors), then, with the ID, the advantage still will be in my side...

[Tenryu]

Originally posted by Rollo:
Tenryu - Your suggestion makes PPB waaayyy too weak IMHO. For a 100k "admission fee" you get a PPB I with damage 15 10 00 00 ...? No offense, but that is just worthless. Using your system you'd have to have at least PPB V before even considering using them.

Rollo

Rollo, They skip shields. I 'rebalanced' ALL the other weapons, and the tech trees related to them, I also gave them to you after Physics 1. I was NEVER happy with my tweaking, the issue is very complex.

My point being, if you go mucking with the ppb you will need to muck with darn near everything else, not to mention the AIs.

I agree the issue of WEAPONs, {what they do, how they do it, how many types there are, what mounts they can use, what level they can be researched to, what they cost, and what they cost to maintain, what race can use them}, is important, but, it is not an issue amenable to a quick tweak. It would need the sustained attention by several modders completely familiar with the potential impacts on AI designs and behavior.

In short, you would need someting like happened with the TDM Group to do it WELL. That group has a well articulated and focused area of attention. At the outset they set clearly defined bounds for the project. TDM has been a SUSTAINED, but CASUAL, group effort. It will be a difficult act to follow.


[ May 30, 2002, 14:17: Message edited by: Tenryu ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
this may be a case of the simulator being jacked, I'll try and run some real-world tests tommarow.

Phoenix-D

Ok, it may be that. It also may be that in my "Real World" test I neglected to play with the fleet arangments and see if that had any impact. I left all that default so both sides wer staying in a nice V formation. It may be that this skewed my results in favor of the APB since it had the larger fleet.

But, regardless of that my test was trying to find out whether they weapons were balanced at a point in the game when PPB was strongest. In real life the enemy would not wait for you to get to PPBV and LC's to attack. My APB and MB races were both well ahead of PPB in ship tech early on. They both had LC and level 2 of their weapon almost 6 months before PPB race had started on PPB's. They were still on destroyers and researching Physics 2.

There very well may be a valid point that the PPB is imbalanced at certain points in the game. When it jumps to PPB II for instance. It also may be that that point in the game corelates with about the time when Master B is ready to move on any poor sap unlucky enough to start near him.

I still disagree that it is an uber-weapon. Yes, it is very popular with the better players. But is that why they are better? I think those people are just modest and don't realize that they would have much sucess regardless of which particular weapon they choose. But that is an argument for another thread.

Early on a PPB using race would have trouble against one that concentrated on DUC's. Late in the game the PPB race would have trouble against races with APB's. It's the mid game when the PPB's are king. But it's also the mid game when most games are won or lost.

Any amount of changing we do to make them less powerul is going to make them less efective in the mid game when they are superior, but it will not make them any better in the late game when they are already inferior.

Geoschmo

[Andrés]

I repeat what I had posted below.
Weapons were balanced in SE3, where all weapons had the same size.
When they were copied into SE4 they were given different tonnage and that balance was lost.
My proposal is give them the same tonnage again.

Leave PPBs and APBs as they are, but decrease tonnage of other weapons such as torpedoes, high-energy weapons, graviton hellbores to 30 kt to RESTORE SE3 weapons balance and make them valid options again.

PPB should still be among the best weapons, but be one among the many possible choices. Its final stats below APB compensate their initial advantage by skipping normal shields.