Re: ammo cannisters

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by RERomine

I'm confused. Where did the thing about air dropping guns and howitzers come from beyond my joke earlier in the thread?

I understand the part about separating crews from their artillery type pieces (please drop gun before crew jumps ), but did anyone actually have planes designed to drop guns and howitzers during WWII and in significant enough quantities to be useful for something other than special ops? These days, they are typically rolled out of the back of the plane. Maybe someone had planes like that back then, but I don't know of any. Personally, I have always used gliders for delivering guns and small vehicles. I thought it was standard practice back then and really, the main reason they used gliders.

from your earlier post:

yea, the idea is great, but i think they might need "escorts" jumping out with them, so, will the planes after loading up the gun still have some carry capacity?(maybe 6 men left is eneough)

I took that to mean you needed escorts from the guns jumping. Escorts meaning that you were going into a hot LZ with paradropped crews, since that was the subject being discussed.

Australia has a pack airborne 25 pounder, others may have airborne pack howitzers.

Personally - I would leave any arty in my deployment zone in a regular battle.

Andy

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Actually, I didn't say that

I took that to mean you needed escorts from the guns jumping. Escorts meaning that you were going into a hot LZ with paradropped crews, since that was the subject being discussed.

Australia has a pack airborne 25 pounder, others may have airborne pack howitzers.

Personally - I would leave any arty in my deployment zone in a regular battle.

Andy

I actually suggested gliders in the first place.

Originally Posted by RERomine

Yes, they did air drop ammo but it was probably packed differently than in a crate. They used more specialized drop canisters than a wooden box. Yes, the game name is "ammo canister", but they do appear to be boxes to me in the pictures. Setting the C-47 to a carry capacity of 28 rather than 128 keeps people from air dropping antitank guns and the like, as stated by thatguy96. Those types of weapons were delivered by gliders, which could carry them and ammo crates as well. Gliders seem to have no trouble loading in the crates, or for that matter, ammo trucks and M3 ammo tracks.

The only thing I would drop, using gliders, would be small antitank guns if the drop force didn't have adequate, integrated, infantry antitank weapons. I just got confused because it started as a discussion on air dropping ammo canisters and switched to dropping guns because the suggested OOB change allowed for unrealistic unrealistic possibilities.

Originally Posted by RERomine

I tried the same thing and C-47s will also carry and 90mm AA guns as well. Two of them, in fact. I bet those were fun to shove out the side door

I made the first comment about air dropping guns, but was obviously being sarcastic. The OOB changes suggested to allow one thing that would be realistic (dropping ammo canisters) and as a byproduct, created another more unrealistic situation (dropping 90mm AA guns). C-47s might be able to carry large guns, but I have to suspect they would have had a little note on them after dropped, "Some Assembly Required".

Personally, I wouldn't be dropping ammo canisters in the first place because the canisters themselves are unrealistic. They are little black boxes with every type of ammo anyone would ever need. You can find in them tank ammo from 20mm to 380mm, artillery ammo from 75mm to 155mm, mortar rounds from 60mm to 120mm, flame thrower fuel, satchel charges, grenades, rockets, etc. and a host of small arms ammo; all of this in unlimited quantities packed in a box that can be carried on a jeep

Don't worry Don and Andy, I'm not suggesting it be changed. I understand the complications of taking old code and modifying it so only specific ammo types and quantities were loaded into the canister at force selection time and tracking ammo as it's being removed, not to mention a new function for removing ammo in the first place. If you wanted to separate this from other "ammo carrier" types, you are looking at a new class to handle it. Then you have to regression test it to make sure the changes didn't mess up anything else which is much easier in my world than yours. The only practical change would be to get rid of it all together, anyhow and I can do that myself if I want to. At least with ammo dumps and vehicles, you can rationally say those are large enough to have some diversity in the ammo types they carry and carry it in large quantities. As for ammo canisters, I don't use them

[PopskiPPA]

Personally, I wouldn't be dropping ammo canisters in the first place because the canisters themselves are unrealistic. They are little black boxes with every type of ammo anyone would ever need. You can find in them tank ammo from 20mm to 380mm, artillery ammo from 75mm to 155mm, mortar rounds from 60mm to 120mm, flame thrower fuel, satchel charges, grenades, rockets, etc. and a host of small arms ammo; all of this in unlimited quantities packed in a box that can be carried on a jeep

Game Guide:
"AMMO CANISTER, crew is 1 and speed must be 0, usually transportable, supplies small ammo only (to WH size 3), low supply points per move (20 ammo points)"

Not quite as unrealistic as mentioned...

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by PopskiPPA

Game Guide:
"AMMO CANISTER, crew is 1 and speed must be 0, usually transportable, supplies small ammo only (to WH size 3), low supply points per move (20 ammo points)"

Not quite as unrealistic as mentioned...

That's really in the game guide? I stand corrected. It's not as unrealistic as I believed. Looking in the game guide for information about a specific unit is nothing that would have occurred to me. As I mentioned before, I don't use ammo canisters anyhow so I haven't figured it out through the trial and error process.

Thanks for the information PopskiPPA.

Now I'm more puzzled than before. Why would someone want an ammo canister? Sounds like they are mainly useful for resupplying small arms and I don't think I've ever had a unit run out of bullets and grenades in the game.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by RERomine

That's really in the game guide? I stand corrected. It's not as unrealistic as I believed. Looking in the game guide for information about a specific unit is nothing that would have occurred to me. As I mentioned before, I don't use ammo canisters anyhow so I haven't figured it out through the trial and error process.

Thanks for the information PopskiPPA.

Now I'm more puzzled than before. Why would someone want an ammo canister? Sounds like they are mainly useful for resupplying small arms and I don't think I've ever had a unit run out of bullets and grenades in the game.

So please do explain if you don't bother to read the GG and don't use ammo cannisters anyway why would you assume you know how they work and what they supply then write all about it???

You have heard what ASSUME also stands for don't you ?? You just proved it

ammo cannisters are in the game so they can be used more or less as intended. to supply small arms ammo and are useful for that purpose in scenarios and, perhaps, to some players of big games as cheap, SMALL ammo resupply device. YOu may never find a use for them but every player isn't you.


Don

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by DRAG

So please do explain if you don't bother to read the G and don't use ammo cannisters anyway why would you assume you know how they work and what they supply then write all about it???

You have heard what ASSUME also stands for don't you ?? You just proved it.

No, I don't use them, but I can easily go out and see what they can and can't do. I may change my mind whether I use them based on what I hear from people and see. What I went out and did was tested the air drop aspect of them and the impact of the suggested C-47 changes and not really what they were and weren't capable of supplying. Yes, I did make an assumption there

As for the game guide, I don't look in the game guide for information about specific units and some things appear self explanatory. It's not irrational to conclude that bunkers and dumps provide ammo the fastest, followed by trucks and the like and finally ammo canisters. I use bunkers and mobile supplies all the time and figured it out by trial and error.

As far as their being limited on what they can supply, I admitted I was wrong to an extent. There was an extra caveat I didn't know about limiting warhead size. They can't supply large stuff yet are still are bottomless sources of what they do supply. One box can supply almost 3600lbs of 50mm ATG HE ammo (500 rounds) in 50 turns. That is a pretty heavy box. AP rounds are more than 20% heavier. I understand this is because grenades and 50mm ATG rounds are both WH3. In this case intent and reality skewed in different directions.

My conclusion about what they could provide was lead in the wrong direction based on information out on one of the ladder sites as well, which implies ammo canisters can provide mortar ammo:

Mortars:

• Buy in batteries
• No more then 1 hex between tubes
• Cannot be set up in houses
• One section of ammo boxes allowed per battery
• Max onboard size 120mm

Discussions involved all mortars and not just the small ones like the Italian 45mm. The other company's product might be responsible for the confusion as well. I know Shrapnel isn't responsible for incorrect information put out by other sources, but I based my conclusions partially on that.

ammo cannisters are in the game so they can be used more or less as intended. to supply small arms ammo and are useful for that purpose in scenarios and, perhaps, to some players of big games as cheap, SMALL ammo resupply device. YOu may never find a use for them but every player isn't you.


Don

There are several reasons I don't use them. Even though they are cheap, they are vulnerable to incoming artillery. I don't use ammo dumps either for the same reason. Another reason is they are immobile unless I want to buy transport for them. I might as well buy ammo truck if I'm going to do that. More typically, I use armored ammo carriers. Mobility helps to alleviate the vulnerability to artillery fire. The fact that they are limited in what they can supply, obviously never crossed my mind.

In game terms, my experiences and only mine, haven't generated a need or practical opportunity to resupply small arms. The only unit I've ever had run out of small arms ammunition wasn't even a leg unit. It was a very experienced Tiger crew that ran out of machine gun ammo. Being experienced, they fired much more often than typical units and burned through what they had. With leg units, I find and again, these are only my experiences, units become combat ineffective long before they run out of ammo.

Yes, other people probably have different experiences and some probably have the same. For people who find uses for them, by all means they should use them. If I found a use for them, I would do the same.

Overall, it's all just opinion and you know what they say about that