Guide: LA Ulm: Goths Gone Wild! or, Flying Immortal Vampire Harbingers of Dooooooooooooooom!

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by KissBlade

How are /equipped/ counts any better as raiders than say spectres, bane lords, black servants, harbingers, succubi's, etc ad infinitum? Immortality rarely comes into play on offense in actual games, counts have poor stats and poor buffing paths. Their only real winning clauses are that they fly and stealth, one of which is replaceable by items. The excellent raider clause is a complete exaggeration. They make /ok/ raiders but that is definitely not their strength. Heck with a decent bless, even Black Lords (or Horgkluwera as they're called now) make better thugs out of the box.

I also find it odd, that you constantly assert Order 3 has to play a different style than luck 3. I'm not even sure I understand your argument on "plan for income events" but it seems to say just build less infantry. Well, as I've already repeated multiple times, you can get just as many counts by taking Order 3, I find it hard to believe that less infantry > the ability to get more castles, more mages, and more troops.

I will give you one example of how a count, not even equipped, is better than all of those others.

Stealth a vampire into a territory.
Next turn, hit it with sufficient horrors to wipe out the indy.
The vampire's free spawn occurs *after* magical combat - and wins the territory for you.

Stealth him into the next territory.

Since the vampire is stealthy, he is never attacked by the horrors, or even seen. Since he *stays* stealthy, he is not at risk for strategic spells.

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In one sense I agree with you; that vampires counts are unimpressive stat wise. I generally only summon 2-3.

VC counts are useful in a few ways:
1. They lead ghouls.
2. With two easy boosters, they cast sanguine heritage, relieving the need of your pretender to do same.
3. They fly - which most of the other things on your list do not. And hence are the perfect thing to lead vampires.

As long as you fly and raid *in dominion* you don't care whether you win or lose the fight. Merely inflicting casualties is sufficient.

4. Vampires counts are significantly cheaper than harbingers or succubi.

[KissBlade]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I will give you one example of how a count, not even equipped, is better than all of those others.

Stealth a vampire into a territory.
Next turn, hit it with sufficient horrors to wipe out the indy.
The vampire's free spawn occurs *after* magical combat - and wins the territory for you.

Stealth him into the next territory.

Since the vampire is stealthy, he is never attacked by the horrors, or even seen. Since he *stays* stealthy, he is not at risk for strategic spells.

4. Vampires counts are significantly cheaper than harbingers or succubi.

So you think a stealthy raider that leaves a trail of thralls to point out his location is better than the other options I've listed because it can attack indies with the help of horrors? Seems awfully inefficient to me ... Especially since the premier remote spell is Mind Hunt. If you're talking about using send horrors to bomb an opponent's pd and raid, that's already a tactic you can apply to anything. If you rely on just thralls, not only is it inefficient versus scouts (you lose the blood hunting turns of the count) but your opponent can just counter it by moving around a few recruited indie commanders on "hold, hold, retreat". Since your thralls would auto rout versus them with no commanders.

Second, Harbingers are only 20 death gems versus 44 slaves. if you value slaves lower than 1/2 a gem, then 66 slaves for a succubi versus 44 for a vamp count isn't significantly cheaper since we're talking about using them on the field rather than blood hunting. Furthermore, the poster mentioned gearing them up with gems. Once you factor that in, it swings far more in favor of other chassis with more durability.


I'll state once again, raiding with vampire counts is entirely overrated. They're good for other reasons but martially, there are more effective tools once you get going.

Lastly, I'll point out again, there is nothing that says you can't use counts if you take Order 3. If anything, order 3 is better since you quell more unrest with order (small doses) than turmoil and is far less likely to suffer brigands/barbarians.