Don't Feel Sorry For The AI

[Ramm]

What forces did you buy exactly and how big the map? Your description of a massive Polish/Nazi tank battle sounds like the start of a fun campaign After I get done my homework tonight I was thinking about starting a SPWW2 campaign

Cheers,

Andrew

[Charles22]

Originally Posted by Ramm

What forces did you buy exactly and how big the map? Your description of a massive Polish/Nazi tank battle sounds like the start of a fun campaign After I get done my homework tonight I was thinking about starting a SPWW2 campaign

Cheers,

Andrew

I play on a 200X130. This makes something of a more mobile defense very necessary. When visibility is worse it's more crucial. I may had destroyed all of his tanks and despite him losing some 1247 men he still had a minimum of 15 of those large infantry squads that hadn't even been touched. I give the AI always the tank heavy option.

Basically I start out the long campaign as germany with 60 battles, with the most disadvantageous repair option (-20%) using like 3300pts starting out. Roughly speaking, this is the force composition:
1 infantry company, including changing 1 into engineers and 1 into SS inf.
2 tank companies, composing of 30-33 AFV's total
1 engineer and 1 Brandenburger platoons
1 HMG section
8 SPAA's
1 AA section
3 37mm ATG's
1 scout section
1 HT platoon
1 88ATG section
4 100mm offboard guns
2 onboard 150IG's
2 onboard 75IG's
1 highest rated sniper

I have on any given campaign a variance between 110-130 units (USSR usually having more units). It's meant to simulate the mobile defense tactics employed on the late eastern front by germany. With that much height and not a lot of depth, it is a very fascinating game of trying to predict when you vacate, or near vacate areas in order to help where the enemy may be concentrating an attack. Unlike in the battles measuering only 100 hexes high, you have to be a much more proficient predictor of just what is needed where, as help takes often much longer to come. I have tanks which in some cases are going a full 6 or 7 turns before they can help in the area needed. This also helps teach the value of any amount of delaying that one can employ that often wouldn't matter on smaller maps.

On the flip side, it makes defense that much harder, in theory, for the AI, but if you attack pretty much across a broad front, this will weaken your attack a bit. I tend to have hard thrusts with my two tank companies, aided with some infantry, and then cover all the other territory to fight in either adequate to what I can expect, or inadequate. The idea is to have every attack where there is a bit of danger, but also parts where there's lots of success, so that you can see, if the weak areas face a lot of opposition, or even a determined counter-attack, then you have to start bleeding off the main thrusts. I also always play with clustered objectives, which is what the AI is geared for defending, which in theory should also help make the AI's defense easier, because the flanks won't need to be defended as much as with grapeshot objectives, and be less piecemeal. The AI may place the defense the exact same way for grapeshot, which of course means there's some objectives which would be easy takes. For the human, I guess it can make defense more difficult playing grapeshot, but since the Ai isn't geared for grapeshot defense, it probably isn't geared for grapeshot attack, though if you're like me you're determined not to lose a single one of them, even temporarily (unfortunately I lost about 60% of them in this clustered objectives battle, and the battle went the full 49 turns).

I played one battle of SPWAW, and this game doesn't show it would have a problem duplicating that stunt, but I had faced like 150 of the French S-35's. Talk about trembling! I destroyed maybe 30 of them, and damaged quite a few more, before the French surrendered (I was being assaulted). If I wanted to fight it out, he could had possibly had destroyed every one of my units with such a force, but I plugged away enough that he gave up. France may be the only nation that will be that well off and still surrender. SPWAW wouldn't let me have the sort of maps I use in this game though. Oh man, facing 150 S-35's would be much worse with this map.

[gila]

Originally Posted by Charles22

Basically I start out the long campaign as germany with 60 battles, with the most disadvantageous repair option (-20%) using like 3300pts starting out. Roughly speaking, this is the force composition:
1 infantry company, including changing 1 into engineers and 1 into SS inf.

2 tank companies, composing of 30-33 AFV's total
Why so many tanks?

1 engineer and
1 Brandenburger platoons
Brandenburgers cost more i'd go for regs
1 HMG section

8 SPAA's
worthless in poland as the poland AF is done already by sept '39.

1 AA section
Unnecessary in poland

3 37mm ATG's
just a waste

1 scout section
1 HT platoon

1 88ATG section
What targets to shoot at?

4 100mm offboard guns
2 onboard 150IG's
2 onboard 75IG's
1 highest rated sniper

How many airstrikes also?

Your wasting alot of pts, giving the poles extra pts. and whining that it's unfair.

[Charles22]

Originally Posted by gila

How many airstrikes also?

Your wasting alot of pts, giving the poles extra pts. and whining that it's unfair.

There are so many tanks for a number of reasons. Foremost because I find playing with a minimal amount of tanks VERY boring (the enemy is given the tank heavy option as well). Also, as I explained earlier, I am trying to create something of the feel of a force similar to a late east front german force, one which will often need mobility on the defensive to have much hope of holding, as my maps are very high (200) and somewhat narrow (130) such that the enemy is the quicker upon me, and I have more territory to cover up and down. The side benefit to this, is that you have a map so tall, that you end up a lot of times with almost 2 or 3 separate armies, instead of just 1 or 2, because even the longest ranging AFV guns in great visibility can't pretty much dominate the board by taking up basically one or two central positions.

I do have some regular infantry but I think having a dominant infantry unit is worth their extra price. How many infantry units have both "2" LMG's and a satchel charge? Or 2 LMG's and a sniper rifle? And these guys are very experienced, so you can get them to elite in no time.

8 SPAA's worthless? Truly you do not appreciate the advanatges of long standing units. It's a build for the future it is, because 100+ rated SPAA when germany is the one being air attacked, is far better than 60exp SPAA bought on the fly. Besides, even on the matter of Poland itself in a mere 7 rated visibility, these guys proved invaluable. Now that isn't the normal case, but I let my emotion get the better of me, and put them in range so close (as 7 is close) that some of them were engaged, by infantry. I usually pretty much hide them for the first battles, but will use them for distanced infantry support when enemy planes cannot be found. Though they have no armor, and that's why I am very cautious with them, they must had destroyed at least 6 tanks, and I lost only one of them. I don't think I lost a single man on the others. This was partly sue to the enemy tansk preferring to engage my AFV's though the SPAA was about. I was getting far more reliable kills with them, but it was very close range. Every unit in my army has a purpose, though it may not show up in every battle (most notably my ATG's).

37mm ATG's a waste? Well, in this battle you couldn't had been wronger. They had the most outstanding effort of the entire army this time around, and if I had towed them with the HT's they would had been more outstanding still. I placed them on my southern flank with virtually no support. They destroyed approximately 10 AFV's without losing a single man (IIRC they may not had been even fired upon)! That was the entirity of the polish southern flank attack destroyed. Somewhere along the way, I decided to throw some of the slightly more northern AFV possible support into the objective areas I was losing, because it became apparent that enough time passed they were no longer needed, but also because these aces were just begging for more. Way to go team! Defending against advances, you may not find a more valuable platoon than ATG's in cover on a flank. Perhaps half your battles in an LC is defensive, so why not have some units which excel at that? The results I posted aren't typical of these guns, but it does show what they are capable of.

88's not having targets? Surely you jest. These were the ATG type, not the AA type. Nonetheless, the AA version is very formidable anyway. Yes, you are somewhat correct, because those guns are so valuable, I could not dare risk them against a target when visibility was a mere 7, for this battle anyway. If, when campaiging, you are interested in getting units to elite status, there is no gun better for the german cause. You do recall the disadvantages germany has against the heavier French, British, and USSR tanks don't you? That's where these babies come in. I would venture to guess they're still relavent until at least 1943 for knocking out heavier armor, after that the crew can be switched to the 88pak ATG's or something. If one feels like using them for long-range anti-personnel use at times, they can work real well there too.

Airstrikes? I wasn't allowed any IIRC, but if they were available I didnt' buy any. They would had been all but useless in this battle anyway, as the visibility was very low.

I didn't whine that giving the poles extra points was unfair. The gist of any whining was directed at excessive artillery picking by the AI and how the direct fire between AFV's was workign heavily to my disadvantage this time. I have had many battles with this size of a force against the poles, and it's the first time anything this nightmarish regarding artillery came off.

Ah, but I have discovered something. This is the first very low visibility game I have played in winSPWW2 as well. I don't think it is a coincidence that my counter-battery sat so long and didn't counter a thing (and with so much to counter). I also don't think it's a coincidence that the AI would go quite out of character of pick that much artillery, though I would still consider half of 60 guns pretty heavy, but I have seen that a few times and aren't amazed by it. I think the AI figures I CANNOT counter-battery him, because the low visibility would prevent that (which I didn't realize, if true) and thereby picks artillery in droves. I don't think I will go along with any battles having visibility that low again, and that may cure this excessive amount of artillery entirely.

BTW, I think you took my experienced gained through units being in core, incorrectly. What I was saying was that the longer a unti is in core, and is not destroyed, the more experience it gains. Even if exp is gained through kills alone, it can't gain exp if it isn't in the core, and the longer in the core the longer it can get kills.

[Ramm]

Originally Posted by Charles22

There are so many tanks for a number of reasons. Foremost because I find playing with a minimal amount of tanks VERY boring (the enemy is given the tank heavy option as well). Also, as I explained earlier, I am trying to create something of the feel of a force similar to a late east front german force, one which will often need mobility on the defensive to have much hope of holding, as my maps are very high (200) and somewhat narrow (130) such that the enemy is the quicker upon me, and I have more territory to cover up and down. The side benefit to this, is that you have a map so tall, that you end up a lot of times with almost 2 or 3 separate armies, instead of just 1 or 2, because even the longest ranging AFV guns in great visibility can't pretty much dominate the board by taking up basically one or two central positions.

I do have some regular infantry but I think having a dominant infantry unit is worth their extra price. How many infantry units have both "2" LMG's and a satchel charge? Or 2 LMG's and a sniper rifle? And these guys are very experienced, so you can get them to elite in no time.

8 SPAA's worthless? Truly you do not appreciate the advanatges of long standing units. It's a build for the future it is, because 100+ rated SPAA when germany is the one being air attacked, is far better than 60exp SPAA bought on the fly. Besides, even on the matter of Poland itself in a mere 7 rated visibility, these guys proved invaluable. Now that isn't the normal case, but I let my emotion get the better of me, and put them in range so close (as 7 is close) that some of them were engaged, by infantry. I usually pretty much hide them for the first battles, but will use them for distanced infantry support when enemy planes cannot be found. Though they have no armor, and that's why I am very cautious with them, they must had destroyed at least 6 tanks, and I lost only one of them. I don't think I lost a single man on the others. This was partly sue to the enemy tansk preferring to engage my AFV's though the SPAA was about. I was getting far more reliable kills with them, but it was very close range. Every unit in my army has a purpose, though it may not show up in every battle (most notably my ATG's).

37mm ATG's a waste? Well, in this battle you couldn't had been wronger. They had the most outstanding effort of the entire army this time around, and if I had towed them with the HT's they would had been more outstanding still. I placed them on my southern flank with virtually no support. They destroyed approximately 10 AFV's without losing a single man (IIRC they may not had been even fired upon)! That was the entirity of the polish southern flank attack destroyed. Somewhere along the way, I decided to throw some of the slightly more northern AFV possible support into the objective areas I was losing, because it became apparent that enough time passed they were no longer needed, but also because these aces were just begging for more. Way to go team! Defending against advances, you may not find a more valuable platoon than ATG's in cover on a flank. Perhaps half your battles in an LC is defensive, so why not have some units which excel at that? The results I posted aren't typical of these guns, but it does show what they are capable of.

88's not having targets? Surely you jest. These were the ATG type, not the AA type. Nonetheless, the AA version is very formidable anyway. Yes, you are somewhat correct, because those guns are so valuable, I could not dare risk them against a target when visibility was a mere 7, for this battle anyway. If, when campaiging, you are interested in getting units to elite status, there is no gun better for the german cause. You do recall the disadvantages germany has against the heavier French, British, and USSR tanks don't you? That's where these babies come in. I would venture to guess they're still relavent until at least 1943 for knocking out heavier armor, after that the crew can be switched to the 88pak ATG's or something. If one feels like using them for long-range anti-personnel use at times, they can work real well there too.

Airstrikes? I wasn't allowed any IIRC, but if they were available I didnt' buy any. They would had been all but useless in this battle anyway, as the visibility was very low.

I didn't whine that giving the poles extra points was unfair. The gist of any whining was directed at excessive artillery picking by the AI and how the direct fire between AFV's was workign heavily to my disadvantage this time. I have had many battles with this size of a force against the poles, and it's the first time anything this nightmarish regarding artillery came off.

Ah, but I have discovered something. This is the first very low visibility game I have played in winSPWW2 as well. I don't think it is a coincidence that my counter-battery sat so long and didn't counter a thing (and with so much to counter). I also don't think it's a coincidence that the AI would go quite out of character of pick that much artillery, though I would still consider half of 60 guns pretty heavy, but I have seen that a few times and aren't amazed by it. I think the AI figures I CANNOT counter-battery him, because the low visibility would prevent that (which I didn't realize, if true) and thereby picks artillery in droves. I don't think I will go along with any battles having visibility that low again, and that may cure this excessive amount of artillery entirely.

I can't really comment on whether or not you wasted your points because I'm not really experienced with that. I can tell you that visibility has absolutely nothing to do with off-map counter-battery fire. You CB effectiveness is determined by three things: A) exp, B) range of guns, C) a throw of the dice
Hope this helps

Andrew

[Charles22]

RAMM: Thanks. I have often thought along the same lines regarding counter-battery artillery, but I have had these 100mm guns in games a long time, and at least in 39-40, out-range all guns, or at least equal them. They certainly out-range the polish 75mm, and as I have seen them go off before against far fewer guns, with far less turns having passed, I find it very surprising, whether there's truly a random factor there or not (and I can't imagine why there wouldn't be) that they would have such an enormous amount of opportunities here amd not go off in this case, so I have to resort to the lack of visibility theory.

[Mobhack]

1) experience is gained by participating in battles. Simply being in the core will allow some exp gain provided nothing nasty happens to a unit.

2) Night has zip-zero to do with counter battery.

3) The Poles do not have large amounts of armour to soak up points, even with the too-heavy allocation of armour the AI gets even before tank heavy. So if you have a large points value against them then they will have a larger remaining point value each time through the purchase loop. So the artillery buy in the loop has more chance of buying a battalion and not a battery on each pass, if (or even if) the other large ticket item (A tank coy, rarer for Poles in 39) is not bought. My guess is the AI purchase loop decided on an arty bn buy several times in your game - which is rare but not impossible.

Easy peasy way to check the Polish buy
a) figure out how many points you actually spent
b) set that in preferences
c) set Ge vs PO in the correct date
d) generate the appropriate battle (and visibility) with computer purchase for BOTH sides and human deploy for the AI side about 50 times. Examine the AI buy each time. Fleet buying of artillery bns will be rare, but not impossible.

Andy

[PanzerBob]

...............or buy a Steel Umbrella!!!

Sorry could not resist!!

Bob out

[Charles22]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

1) experience is gained by participating in battles. Simply being in the core will allow some exp gain provided nothing nasty happens to a unit.

2) Night has zip-zero to do with counter battery.

3) The Poles do not have large amounts of armour to soak up points, even with the too-heavy allocation of armour the AI gets even before tank heavy. So if you have a large points value against them then they will have a larger remaining point value each time through the purchase loop. So the artillery buy in the loop has more chance of buying a battalion and not a battery on each pass, if (or even if) the other large ticket item (A tank coy, rarer for Poles in 39) is not bought. My guess is the AI purchase loop decided on an arty bn buy several times in your game - which is rare but not impossible.

Easy peasy way to check the Polish buy
a) figure out how many points you actually spent
b) set that in preferences
c) set Ge vs PO in the correct date
d) generate the appropriate battle (and visibility) with computer purchase for BOTH sides and human deploy for the AI side about 50 times. Examine the AI buy each time. Fleet buying of artillery bns will be rare, but not impossible.

Andy

2. Interesting, as the screen looks the same compared to day battles, it did not occur to me that it might be a night mission, but rather a heavy storm with fog perhaps.

3. Yes, that has been my observation too, that guns of this magnitude are rare, but then polish advances are probably pretty rare as well. They have been rare for me anyway.

Yes, polish advances are fairly rare, but either that or polish assaults, which I don't think I have ever seen, would be the ones most likely to bring the hail of excess artillery. The majority of missions in poland are either german offensive ones or meeting engagements, any of which would make polish heavy artillery such as in this battle virtually impossible with the points my force had (can't be more than 3600-3800 by now, including minimal support).

[Ramm]

Originally Posted by Charles22

2. Interesting, as the screen looks the same compared to day battles, it did not occur to me that it might be a night mission, but rather a heavy storm with fog perhaps.

This game lacks even the most basic representation of meteorology and the day/night cycle which is a travesty. It is a travesty because this is a war strategy game. Since the time before Christ and even to this day nocturnal/diurnal values and meteorological conditions have played decisive roles in the outcome of a battle, nay even a war. WWII comes to mind.

All the end user sees is a cryptic number value (visibility) which doesn't even differentiate between meteorological conditions and simple nocturnal/diurnal values.

Bottom line weather and day/night is so importent it must be added to the game. By a picture on the tool bar or accessed by a button so as to not take up space or just a hotkey.

Even a simple text description would be sufficient, such as a brief weather report (a sentence or two) and time of day. I think a text description is not too much to ask.

The argument that this change would not actually effect gameplay and is therefore unnecessary is specious.

Game icons do not actually effect gameplay (symbols could be used instead) and yet they are a necessary component of SP.

Andrew