MP: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game Over. Vets defeat Noobs.

[Septimius Severus]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Oh god that sounds horrific. I could go again into why that's a bad idea, but I'll take a different tac:

Let's up the ante, winning team decides settings for the next one (tradition has already been somewhat established). You are hereby challenged, there is only one honorable response.

What's so horrific?

I'm going to wait to see how this one plays out before we delve into specifics. I believe the playing field has been leveled this time around and possibly tipped slightly into the favor of the vets, however this may prove incorrect. Suggestions though, as always, are welcome.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Septimius Severus

What's so horrific?

I'm going to wait to see how this one plays out before we delve into specifics. I believe the playing field has been leveled this time around and possibly tipped slightly into the favor of the vets, however this may prove incorrect. Suggestions though, as always, are welcome.

A coward's answer! Do not shame your team further by refusing.

Speaking of cowardly tricks, I have another bone to pick with you. Nowhere in the settings was it mentioned rare events, this is effectively a 240 (!) point disadvantage for a nation such as mine with luck 3.

Even worse though, is what it means about last game. Assuming that it was in effect then too, I'd cite it as one of the top reasons for the vets getting taken out. My entire build there was built around the income from luck, at the time I thought I had somehow just gotten phenomenally unlucky. So instead of events I had to rely on handouts from the rest of the team since my other scales were so bad, draining everyone. Additionally as I recall Ermor and Mictlan took luck as well, this proved especially deadly to Mictlan. Just imagine what one 1000-2000 gold event would have changed in the first few turns, a huge hydra army from the start.

[Septimius Severus]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

A coward's answer! Do not shame your team further by refusing.

Speaking of cowardly tricks, I have another bone to pick with you. Nowhere in the settings was it mentioned rare events, this is effectively a 240 (!) point disadvantage for a nation such as mine with luck 3.

Even worse though, is what it means about last game. Assuming that it was in effect then too, I'd cite it as one of the top reasons for the vets getting taken out. My entire build there was built around the income from luck, at the time I thought I had somehow just gotten phenomenally unlucky. So instead of events I had to rely on handouts from the rest of the team since my other scales were so bad, draining everyone. Additionally as I recall Ermor and Mictlan took luck as well, this proved especially deadly to Mictlan. Just imagine what one 1000-2000 gold event would have changed in the first few turns, a huge hydra army from the start.

Excuses, excuses. Yeah, that was why your team lost. Come now.

A minor oversight. It slipped my mind, didn't want to bore everyone with every little detail. I usually choose it in SP games as it cuts down on some of the annoyances and extra turn messages. But as stated it helps and hinders both teams. I assure you twas not intentional. I also didn't mention HOF entries. I'll remember to state it next time though. Works out good for me though, as I usually take some misfortune. Lucikly Ermor's augurs help to counteract the misfortune scales.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Septimius Severus

Excuses, excuses. Yeah, that was why your team lost. Come now.

A minor oversight. It slipped my mind, didn't want to bore everyone with every little detail. I usually choose it in SP games as it cuts down on some of the annoyances and extra turn messages. But as stated it helps and hinders both teams. I assure you twas not intentional. I also didn't mention HOF entries. I'll remember to state it next time though. Works out good for me though, as I usually take some misfortune. Lucikly Ermor's augurs help to counteract the misfortune scales.

Just to be clear, the difference between changing the HoF and changing events from common to rare is orders of magnitude. In fact, in terms of being able to screw up a particular pretender build it is probably more important than all the other settings combined. I do not overreact when I talk about it utterly ruining my nation last game. If I had been playing solo and not been able to drain cash from my teammates, it would have been more obvious just how crippling it was.

Anyway, no hard feelings about it, it would be a nice gesture if you'd at least let the vets handle the settings next game if we win though.

[Septimius Severus]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Just to be clear, the difference between changing the HoF and changing events from common to rare is orders of magnitude. In fact, in terms of being able to screw up a particular pretender build it is probably more important than all the other settings combined. I do not overreact when I talk about it utterly ruining my nation last game. If I had been playing solo and not been able to drain cash from my teammates, it would have been more obvious just how crippling it was.

Anyway, no hard feelings about it, it would be a nice gesture if you'd at least let the vets handle the settings next game if we win though.

Yes, I'm aware of the difference.

But enough of this whining and complaining. Ye gods, are you vets or what? Accept your lot and make the most of it.

I've given you first nation choice.
I've given you control of the seas and the only water nation.
I've given you veto power over membership in both teams.
I've given you a 10 turn NAP to expand unmolested.
I've given you a longer playing game with easy research which gives you an advantage based on your overall experience and knowledge of the magic system in the mid and late game.

With regard to letting the vets decide the settings, as I said let us see how the game plays out. Feel free to make suggestions, any sticky disagreements can be worked out democratically via a vote if it comes down to it. In the unlikely event the vets lose, I may give extra weight to your suggestions.

Understand, I have a vision for this series of games. I created the games to make that vision a reality and to suit those who share similiar ideas and playing habits, so there are certain things I will not compromise on.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Septimius Severus

I've given you first nation choice.
I've given you control of the seas and the only water nation.
I've given you veto power over membership in both teams.
I've given you a 10 turn NAP to expand unmolested.
I've given you a longer playing game with easy research which gives you an advantage based on your overall experience and knowledge of the magic system in the mid and late game.

First off, most these 'privileges' were unasked for and many in fact unwanted. Personally I was hoping newb water nations were allowed so I could duke it out with them underwater. And vets expressed disapproval or disinterest in the NAP (it was also pitched as an idea to help the newbs at the time).

In any case, you seem to be under the mistaken impression I was lobbying for more vet control of the settings in order for more advantage for that team. On the contrary, I simply think vets are best able to determine balanced settings (I think we would have made this game tougher on ourselves if given the choice). You may interpret the frequent issues brought up as 'whining', but it's simply an expression of frustration that the game could be/have been that much better.

If you want specifics about the settings I think need tweaking:

*The map size/player number: Bigger is not better. Bigger games move slower, take more turns, more micromanagement, and in most cases don't even offer bigger battles or more magic used. In fact the biggest battles tend to be on the most tightly packed maps- big maps just means tons of raiding micromanagement. The bottom line for the purposes of the stated goal of teaching newbs- less turns played/games played means the newbs learn slower.

*Rare events. This is a much lesser issue, but I still strongly believe it is a misstep. By nearly eliminating events, you entirely gut the strategy from 2 out 6 scales. Anyone not taking order 3/misfortune 3 would be crazy. And it hardly cuts down on the amount of chance involved anyway, luck with independents and magic sites is in general of far greater importance than fluctuations in events.

[Septimius Severus]

QM, the concept is by its very nature umbalanced. Whenever you've got noobs facing vets, that will be the case. In a 1:1 game, the vets must be handicapped in order to give the noobs a fair shot. Ideally, it should be green noobs vs hall of famers(my vision).

With 1 noob and 1 vet in the water, you've basically got a 1:1 matchup, who do you suppose would have the upper hand under the waves? I would think the noob water nation would be wiped out rather quickly, before getting a chance to learn how to play.

With a 2:1 ratio, well things start to even out a bit especially if the vets can survive into the midgame and/or netrualize the noobs early numerical superiority(at least that seemed to be the consensus back then). However, many have said that 2:1 is too much and took the last game as proof, so I attempted to correct for it with some advantages for the vets in this game and a greater prov/player ratio and larger map/longer game which is what you guys suggested was one of your mistakes (I refer you to Ironhawk, et. al closing comments from game 1, prov/player ratio was too small, so forth, and so on..).

I do intend to make it harder for the vets next game, depending upon what happens here. One way to do that is to go to 3:1. Now tell me, do you really want to give up any advantages you might have? I'd rather think you'd want more (a no first attack rule for the noobs might be good).

I don't intend to increase the prov/player ratio, don't worry. Yes, vets may be more qualified to judge balance. NAP or no NAP, it is arguable whether it had any effect. I put it in to keep Atlantis from attacking early.

Rare events, standard events, makes no difference to me, whatever everyone wants, I don't have the time to put into this game that others seem to have. I've got other priorities. I like the heroes and the occasional gold, that comes with the events, that's about all.

I'm sure we will find a way to compromise between my "vision" and the balance the vets seek.

Now Vets, let me hear your suggestions for a perfectly balanced game. If you were admining tell me the exact settings you would choose and why: prov/player ratio, noob/vet ratio, and every other setting.

It will save time next game, by getting this stuff out of the way now, also will keep the thread alive.