Mod: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

Taking provinces is merely a function of economy also. Clamming is not very interesting, but if you're stuck between a rock and a hard place it's better than just waiting or going kamikaze against neighbours you can't beat now.

It's unproblematic in midgame, everything else just keeps happening. I think the real reason for late game unfun is that attacking becomes very unrewarding.
Luck is a much larger factor than in midgame (maybe the largest), first spell and 50 round advantage, and 90% of your holdings can be replace by the first province you conquer with a 20 gem thug.
If I ended up with the largest income in late game I would just sit back without clams, my position doesn't get weaker.

Err.. that quote in your post is from me, not from Zeldor.

If you're stuck between the rock and the hard place, how about building forts+labs for more mages and research? Clamming isn't the only option to improve your position when you can't assault someone. Besides, clamming does not neccessarily mean that you have to turtle. You just have 1-3 mages doing clams and that is the extent of your resources. Strong nation is able to wage war and clam fine. Clamming isn't somehow more beneficial to nations in poor position.

You have a point about the late-game wars. Gold doesn't really mean anything, so provinces only really serve as buffers.

I get my late-game kicks from seeing all that epic stuff happening. Attacking is exciting for me, since I can't really be *that* sure about what I'll exactly be facing. But I really haven't played too much late games in MP. I could imagine that vets no longer experience that thrill, having seen everything all ready.

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

If I ended up with the largest income in late game I would just sit back without clams, my position doesn't get weaker.

If you have largest income (you probably mean gem income, right?), you can also clam more than any other nation, giving you a theoretical timevantage (since the gems from the clams would allow you to clam even more). So your statement holds true even with clams in the picture.

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Err.. that quote in your post is from me, not from Zeldor.

Sorry, messed up the names.

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

If you have largest income (you probably mean gem income, right?), you can also clam more than any other nation, giving you a theoretical timevantage (since the gems from the clams would allow you to clam even more). So your statement holds true even with clams in the picture.

I get my late-game kicks from seeing all that epic stuff happening. Attacking is exciting for me,since I can't really be *that* sure about what I'll exactly be facing. But I really haven't played too much late games in MP. I could imagine that vets no longer experience that thrill, having seen everything all ready.

Sure that's right and clamming makes it probably worse late game.
I can't call myself a vet only got to something I'd call late game in two games, but all in all I had better battles midgame (killing a water queen in a pitched battle over a cap is more exciting than having the only teleporting thugs you can get killed by two water queens in a province your enemy doesn't care about).

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

If you're stuck between the rock and the hard place, how about building forts+labs for more mages and research? Clamming isn't the only option to improve your position when you can't assault someone. Besides, clamming does not neccessarily mean that you have to turtle. You just have 1-3 mages doing clams and that is the extent of your resources. Strong nation is able to wage war and clam fine. Clamming isn't somehow more beneficial to nations in poor position.

Well, usually stronger position means more gold and more research in the long run, so no difference to clamming.
What I mean is that nation balancing doesn't necessarily mean that all nations fight equally well. In fact I'd find that boring.
Instead the weaker nations have or should have several options to outdo the warrior nations on the home front (access to clams, better research, cheaper and better castles, a good synergy with a global).
Hence the suggestion of removing indie mages. If you want a path adjust your strategy around it.


edit: @Zeldor

Yeah, I know what you mean.
Still, I don't think you're getting at the root of the problem by removing clams.