Guide: LA R'lyeh or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Dreamlands

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by thejeff

My comment was about Squirreloid's approach.
Thus the 6-8 provinces by the end of the first year. For that to even begin to viable, you have to be unopposed in the seas.

Sure, you do whatever it takes to take the seas, but it's much better to take most of them from indies, not wait and take them from opposition.

Well, that was also with a total lack of resources devoted to early expansion as well. One turn of buying units for expansion. You can do much better and still stick pretty much to what I was advocating by buying regular units for 3-4 turns. I basically decided to sit down and play a game where i bought just mages all game. You'll note I said the MA/LA guide was an ok place to start for early expansion, I just wanted to see how a pure mage set-up fared, for theoretical purposes.

(1) Crazy amount of research in year 1 without the pretender doing most of it.
(2) Plenty of gem income, even with few provinces.
(3) Had a clam forger (W3 empowered to N1) and an earth forger (empowered to E3) mage by the end of year 2. (Almost didn't have the second one. Odds of getting an E2 are actually ~1/15 because of the 10% chance at an extra +1 WESD, but that still means you could look at a lot of mages before getting one).
(4) About 6k gold from Lucky 3 over the course of the first year alone. Now, that includes a 3k event, which you don't expect to see, but i'm guessing your first year expectation with lucky is >4k gold from events even with a half-dozen territories. That's rather... substantial.

Basically, my LA R'lyeh build could afford not to expand very fast. While I haven't tried this in MP, I imagine this is useful if people are going to get disturbed should you make a push for land provinces. (You want to secure water faster than that, but you probably don't want to snag ~20ish provinces advocated for indie expansion rate since that will necessitate a large land holding that might provoke a war before you're really ready for one).

Edit
And to my advantage, I already had the research and the mages for combat support by the middle of year 2. (3 W1E1S3D1 mages with crystal shields). Evoc 5 by the middle of year 2 for Gift of the Heavens was both rather early and quite devastating for my move to land. So a 'pure' mage build is looking at being slow out of the gates, but rapidly catching up when its mages come online early. Since you'll also have ramped up the freespawn production by then with increasing dominion in many of your territories, its also far easier to find the chaffe to field for those mages.

More Edit
Ok, maybe i'll try a remote site searching version of the same to see how my gem totals compare at year 1 and year 2 end, and how my research compares. Also, how my dominion spread compares, since a mobile pretender will spread dominion more widely (which helps with generating those freespawn).

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, new game, I'm going to try a couple of your suggestions:

(1) 8 starting mindflayers. Its more investment in initial expansion than I made, which means its not actually going to be a good measure vs. what I did, so i'll probably have to play another game where i invest 400 in slave troops or something.
(2) Remote searching. I wasn't attacking spending gems for remote searching, I just thought it was funny you were against spending on sea serpents when you were spending so much more on remote searching.

I'm still not sold on the void lurker though. Only two slots...

I'm going with a vaguely rainbow master Lich:
F1A3E4S4D5B4 Lk3 Mg3 all other bad scales Dom8

I took the S mostly so i could teleport with my pretender, still not sure how worthwhile this is when every other mage i have will be able to do so.

I want A because Perpetual Storm is actually a reasonably decent global for you since it will help protect *all* your troops from arrow fire on land, not to mention arrow fend, etc... and A3 gives you enough Air you can build the boosters after a RoW or Staff of Elements. (Bags of Air are good anyway because of the free air elemental - for mage teleport into PD squads).

F1 will allow him to cast magma eruption.

B4 is a +2 strength minor blessing for your void summons, and ability to forge Robes of the Magi when you can get some blood slaves. Also, I didn't feel i needed substantial fire or any water with remote searching, and nature wasn't high priority if he wasn't site searching either, so it was either Blood or be deeper in something else. Maybe deeper in something else was the right call, but Robes of the Magi are nice, and there are some other blood-crafts that are useful. Basically, its blood for forging.

The one thing this isn't going to do is find the free fortresses underwater, which is annoying.

[Squirrelloid]

End of Year 1 Synopsis:

Gem Income: Significantly lower (Tiamat just coming online at the start of year 2)
Income: Significantly lower (not province related - see below)
Provinces: About the same (8 instead of 6, but weaker independents overall - ichthyids instead of shamblers and tritons is a big difference)
Research: About the same (Conj 3 1/2 / Evoc 2 / Thaum 1 not in that order)
Fortresses: Significantly lower (1)
Temples: Significantly more (3) - but i needed them to start boosting dominion (did not need in other set up).
Laboratories: No new labs (vs. 1 in the other set up).
Commanders: Significantly fewer mages (no second recruitment center)

Lets talk about a big difference between a mobile pretender and a static pretender - dominion spread. Most of my provinces had 5+ dominion in the other set up because the pretender visited all of them and got 2 turns of dominion spread checks in each one.

Why is that so important for this set up? Because you really need to spread those luck scales. I saw substantially fewer events than in the other game, and substantially less cash and gems from events because I didn't have the luck scales in most of my provinces. A mere 1k gold and two death gem events for a whole year.

About those 8 illithid troops:
They didn't help the army expand for longer. 3 provinces and they needed to be resupplied with troops (chaffe screen entirely gone). Indeed, one could probably say that I took more provinces because this map made resupply easier. In fact, I think they took *more* losses than my initial expansion squad from the other game while taking those first 3 provinces against *weaker* opposition, with only the illithids surviving. (Other game's expansion squad was initial troops + 2 crab troops, 2 atlantian slave troops, 2 13 resource atlantian troops, 1 lobo - 120 gold worth of troops because i also started with a mage).

In virtually all ways this start was worse by a substantial amount.

(oh, for what its worth, starspawn priests are research 6 in Mg3, while starspawn mages are research 10 or 11 (1/10)).

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Ok, new game, I'm going to try a couple of your suggestions:

(1) 8 starting mindflayers. Its more investment in initial expansion than I made, which means its not actually going to be a good measure vs. what I did, so i'll probably have to play another game where i invest 400 in slave troops or something.
(2) Remote searching. I wasn't attacking spending gems for remote searching, I just thought it was funny you were against spending on sea serpents when you were spending so much more on remote searching.

I'm still not sold on the void lurker though. Only two slots...

I'm going with a vaguely rainbow master Lich:
F1A3E4S4D5B4 Lk3 Mg3 all other bad scales Dom8

I took the S mostly so i could teleport with my pretender, still not sure how worthwhile this is when every other mage i have will be able to do so.

I want A because Perpetual Storm is actually a reasonably decent global for you since it will help protect *all* your troops from arrow fire on land, not to mention arrow fend, etc... and A3 gives you enough Air you can build the boosters after a RoW or Staff of Elements. (Bags of Air are good anyway because of the free air elemental - for mage teleport into PD squads).

F1 will allow him to cast magma eruption.

B4 is a +2 strength minor blessing for your void summons, and ability to forge Robes of the Magi when you can get some blood slaves. Also, I didn't feel i needed substantial fire or any water with remote searching, and nature wasn't high priority if he wasn't site searching either, so it was either Blood or be deeper in something else. Maybe deeper in something else was the right call, but Robes of the Magi are nice, and there are some other blood-crafts that are useful. Basically, its blood for forging.

The one thing this isn't going to do is find the free fortresses underwater, which is annoying.

Hey Squirrel: cool that you want to try a few of the ideas. When I'll get home, I'll try to give a more coherent write up of how exactly to do it - because this varies tremendously from what I actually suggested.

For example - you don't need air on the pretender - the visitor comes with it. You don't need blood.

Vfb mentioned one of the little tricks you can use to save 500 gold.

But I routinely get 8 Territories, first year.

[Squirrelloid]

Chris:
Given that game's assumptions, the only effect which magic paths i put on my pretender had on the first year was how much research he accomplished, so I'm not convinced it matters whether he had Blood or Air for the differences I noticed.

I think investing in some crab hybrids is also a far better use of your cash than illithids. If i dumped 400 (ok, 385) gold into crab hybrids I bet I could pull out 9 or 10 provinces pretty easily, assuming sufficient water provinces are available. (Has been true in every test game i've ran).

The big difference is staying at home means your dominion in your conquered provinces is lower, which means your luck scales don't spread as fast, which leads to substantially fewer beneficial events for you. This in turn leads to significantly fewer gems (even ignoring the lack of site finding in year 1), and significantly less gold (by a factor of 2 or more).

Also, not getting the free underwater fortresses from site searching means no easy early second lab for more starspawn mages/turn.

Manual site searching with a rainbow has a lot of secondary advantages even I didn't fully appreciate before.

(Assuming a purely underwater opening, your minimal rainbow chassis for site searching involves A3E3F1W3S3N2D2. Improve the ones you want involved in a minor bless for your void summons.)

[chrispedersen]

Ok... So here's my results using a not so very carefully constructed Lurker: File attached so you can see for yourself.

W4N4D4S8 Dom 9. Sleeping
-3-3-3+2+3+3

I forgot the death 5 was for the fear effect. I dropped points into growth as I really had more points than I needed. You could make him awake if you chose, add magic paths.

First a word about settings:

Map:Milkshake.
Indies all set to default.
AI's set to difficult.
Except for first couple of turns in capital, taxation was capped at 100. Yes, I would usually set it higher with dreamlands. However we need a consistent benchmark, and 100 provides about the only one you can, due to the vagaries of unrest.


Late Winter Year 1: 7175 gold. 118 gems 10 water provinces. (would have had more if I could have reached them). And I really should have purchased cmders to build forts yr 1.

Researched: Conj 4, Thau 1


At the end of year 2: 2000 odd gold. 4 Forts, 4 Labs, 4 Fortresses. 15 water, 6 land. Research 220 or so per turn.

Researched:
Conj5
Alt1
Evo2
Con4
Thau6.

6 Magic items.

I've started conquest of the second water. 30-ish starspawn mages.

Now a few interesting conundrums on this: During 2 years, I found not *one* death site, nor received any death gems. So I had to alchemize to do some searching. Still no hits.

Which, wouldn't be so bad except I *also* didnt find any water sites. Site distribution is site distribution, but clearly those are pretty bad luck.

I also didn't *find* any forts. Go figure. And only got one hit on void summoning.

Still the position is pretty strong, and would have been stronger with more usual luck with site searching. I have no problem replicating these results.

Again comparing the archmage vs the lurker:

lurker path cost :15. Immobile. Dom 2. 130 hp. Regens 37 hp/turn after you bring him home to recharge hp.

Archmage path cost 10.

The Lurker needs Dom 2 saves you 80 points for dom10? You get 13x the hitpoints. The lurker requires you to research conj and thaum (for voice of Tiamat and teleport) - two schools you are going to need anyway. And you have s7 (or 8)

Id also look at a w3E4S5D5N4, -3-3-3+1+3+3 Dom 9 Lurker. Earth + astral gives you immediate dwarven hammer at con2, astral coin, crystal shields.

[Squirrelloid]

You also seem to be using CBM, which I am not. I don't know what that changes, but I can't load the file at present.

[chrispedersen]

Sorry, I did state that I was using CBM in the original post.

Doesn't change a thing in R. pretender design, or unit costs.

CBM however does change the relative effects of some of the scales. Luck is somewhat stronger for example - and opposition's units got much better balanced. Many units were made more viable.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Chris:
I think investing in some crab hybrids is also a far better use of your cash than illithids. If i dumped 400 (ok, 385) gold into crab hybrids I bet I could pull out 9 or 10 provinces pretty easily, assuming sufficient water provinces are available. (Has been true in every test game i've ran).

Personally, I know *everyone* thinks illithid suck. Why you want to blow 35 gp on a critter that has 2xAtk:8 beats me. Plus he's confined to water, whereas illithids will help you break into air.

But I don't particularly care what troops you choose. I reliably get 10 provinces with illithids. So it *hardly* sucks. And I think purchasing troops turn 1 is important for R.
Which was my point.

The big difference is staying at home means your dominion in your conquered provinces is lower, which means your luck scales don't spread as fast, which leads to substantially fewer beneficial events for you. This in turn leads to significantly fewer gems (even ignoring the lack of site finding in year 1), and significantly less gold (by a factor of 2 or more).

Yes, you will establish dominion in the province with your god. Two candles. However, the chance of a scale spread (such as luck, magic etc) is actually pretty minimal.

It is *far* more important to conquer territories. If I conquer 10 territories and you conquer 6 - I'm 66% more likely to get more favorable luck events. This far outweighs the effects of dominion or scale.

So again, I'm arguing that producing troops turn one, and having a void lord (reasons outlined above) allows better expansion and better scales (magic+3) - which dwarfs the effect of dominion spread by the pretender.

Also, not getting the free underwater fortresses from site searching means no easy early second lab for more starspawn mages/turn.

But theres nothing that says you *can't* get free fortresses. A 175 gp slave mage 25% purchase gets you a 2w1n - which will find you most of the fortresses.

Why blow design points when you can purchase it for 175 gp.
By the way.. I forgot to mention it. But in the above game, at the end of year 2, slave mage 1 had 4 insanity; slave mage 2 had none.

Neither lost any actions to insanity. Again, you overestimate the opportunity cost of insanity.

By the way, the R.'s Traitor prince hero *does* go insane.

Manual site searching with a rainbow has a lot of secondary advantages even I didn't fully appreciate before.

(Assuming a purely underwater opening, your minimal rainbow chassis for site searching involves A3E3F1W3S3N2D2. Improve the ones you want involved in a minor bless for your void summons.)

Most of your void summons aren't worth a bless. The ones that *are* worth a bless, regen (vastnesses, greater othernesses) is the best. A +2 attack, +2 defense, +2 strength just ain't gonna matter to a unit that has a 6-8 attack, no prot, and a move of 8.

Next best is probably S, for the MR.