Pretender Design

[shunwick]

I have only had the game for a couple of weeks and I am having fun and still learning.

I am struggling with designing my pretenders though. The whole magic versus order scales thing has me confused. Could someone give me a general idea of the kind of things I need to think about when it comes to marrying a nation with a pretender?

Best wishes,
Steve

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by shunwick

I have only had the game for a couple of weeks and I am having fun and still learning.

I am struggling with designing my pretenders though. The whole magic versus order scales thing has me confused. Could someone give me a general idea of the kind of things I need to think about when it comes to marrying a nation with a pretender?

Best wishes,
Steve

Since you're just starting... I recommend using positive scales and a pretender with 30 hitpoints or more. As you improve your gameplay you can identify which nations can use bless strategies which use magic paths of 4 and higher.

[Micah]

The first step to pretender design is figuring out what your nation needs: Strengths that can be exploited or weaknesses that need to be shored up. Some nations are fairly obvious, some are not.

EA Agartha, for example, is a confusing nation to design for, since they have so many problems as well as tempting sacreds. Designing for them is going to be a challenge best reserved for more experienced players in light of the specifics of the game they're playing in.

To take a more straightforward example, let's look at LA Marignon. The factors to consider with them are early resource constraints on troops and a weak starting army, and a fairly weak early game in general, good magic diversity (only missing N and D), and not much in the way of sacred troops, although the mages would be happy with some E for reinvig.

So, it looks like we need to shore up their early game with a combat pretender. Looking at the pretender selection we have the Moloch and the Cyclops. The cyclops is a lot sturdier and offers E magic instead of F/B, so we'll go with him. Generally on combat pretenders you're going to want to take 9 dominion to get awe, especially with pretenders that have fear, as they synergize incredibly well together. With a cyclops you can also opt to just take an absurdly high level of E magic to boost his protection value through the roof, which also gives you a nice earth bless. Pick whichever you prefer, awe being the safer choice I think. You don't really need to take any additional magic to cover for diversity, unlike some other nations, and you don't need to worry about a bless, so the rest of your points can go to scales.

My general starting scale build is Order 3, Sloth 3, Magic 1, Misfortune 2, neutral growth/death and then 3 of whichever hot/cold scale your nation prefers. Cold is generally preferable if you have a neutral temperature nation because the seasons start with spring and summer, helping to mitigate the scale in your first few turns when the income matters the most. Your opposition in the game will also affect this, if you're fighting against cold-preference enemies you'll want heat instead. (There is also no way for opposing nations to heat up your provinces [Second Sun notwithstanding due to it being horrible], while Wolven Winter will allow them to inflict cold scales on you if they really want, so why be subject to having the worst of both worlds for important battles? Plus if you know it's cold you can plan for it, while if you were expecting it to be +3 heat and they drop 2 WW on you and all of a sudden it's 3-cold you've just been put at a considerable disadvantage.)

Back to the Marignon example: They have a lot of old mages, so growth is a good buy for them to keep them alive. Buying off the misfortune would also be nice, and you have 4 scale picks left on a dom-9 cyclops with base magic, so I'd suggest growth-3 and dropping your misfortune down to a single point (this helps a lot since Order will stop events from occurring too often, especially with a 2 point difference between your scales.) It has been a while since I played Mari, so I'd also want to test to make sure they can handle full sloth, since they do have somewhat resource-intensive troops, but the crossbows are the backbone of your forces and cost more gold than resources. If I had to I'd swap some points into the production scale. The leftover points obviously go to bumping you to E5, and you're good to go.

Just make sure to stay away from crossbows before you get a shield, as they are armor-piercing which will beat his good protection value, and ranged attacks ignore awe, so they pose a very large threat. Cavalry is also always a risk, but any melee or normal bow using troops should be a safe bet. Just make sure to attack with him, not cast spells!

The final build should look like: Awake dom 9 cyclops, E5, Order 3, sloth 3, cold 3, growth 3, misfortune 1, magic 1. Adjust as needed if you want production.

Grab some indy N shaman as soon as you can and then try to open up Fallen Angels (the blood summon) for D access...the lack of D magic is the biggest problem with this build (as well as limited S access, you top out at 2S on national mages, which is a bit weak, but you need a combat pretender and S doesn't go too well on them.) Trading for a crystal coin or two is to your advantage. If the shaman you find include wolf tribals make sure you grab them as your N mages, since you can get lucky and get a point of D magic as well...shaman also make decent researchers, so you can churn out a bunch until you get a lucky D pick to site search with.

Anyhow, this was probably way too much jargon and info all at once, let me know if you have any questions. =)

[Ironhawk]

NTJedi is right - if you are still learning the game you should focus on scales and a tough, survivable pretender. As you gain more experience with the game it will become more clear how your pretender can be leveraged to make your nation better.

That said, since you asked for specific advice I feel I should at least point out the general factors that an experienced player considers when picking a pretender:
-Ability to cast a spell my nation cannot otherwise
-Ability to protect my nation during a weak game phase (like early game)
-Ability to forge specific magic items

[Meglobob]

Just a handy tip for any newbies in there first MP games.

Its probably going to be a learning excerise, so concentrate your build on a very, very strong early game. So its difficult for you to be knocked out. This means a awake or dormant pretender, ideally 100hps+, who has all equipment slots. Positive scales, avoid misfortune, death or drain (until you learn how to cope with them) and try to get as good a bless, particularly a offensive bless F9 or W9 if possible.

By having lots of scouts, you can hopefully survive, even prosper and learn alot which you can later use in future MP. It also gives you time to figure out the mid - late game, which is difficult for newbies.

[shunwick]

Guys,

Thanks. You've given me much to think about.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Jarkko]

You can design your pretender so that he fills in the weak parts of your nation, or to go for the bless effect, just like suggested above.

Or you can go and boost even further the *strengths* of your nation. This strategy mostly works in single-play or blitz MP games, but can take be quite suprising when your neighbours don't expect it.


For example, lets take EA Pangaea. You get more maenads in high turmoil. You definitively want high luck when having high turmoil. Pans don't cost that much in resources, so sloth is nice. You will spawn maeands like mad, so Growth is needed for more supplies. Magic 1 makes your dryads actually pretty good researchers, and you want to go for the protection spells (Mass Protection being the first immediate goal) to make give your maenads staying power (you'll have *lots* of maenads, you will love Mass Protection).

However, at start you will definitively need a super-combatant to take lands like nobody. Enter the White Bull (or Black Bull, if you want to learn how to use communions via Sabbath Master/Slave), who will love you focusing on Alteration. Baalz have noted one should take E4 to a White Bull, and that is indeed a good point (I wish I had figured that out earlier ), as you can then cast all the nice buffing Earth spells *and* you get a nice +4 to the Protection of the Pretender.

Thus, a White Bull with N4 E4 (so that you can make your Minotaur prophet a super-combatant in own dominion; you'll have two heroes (give the starting army for the minotaur profet, eventually that army will disappear, but you can continue expanding with the prophet alone if you stay in strong own dominion) expanding lands like mad, with the raging trampling bull taking one province each turn and the regenerating trampling raging minotaur taking another; just avoid provinces with lots of cavalry or lizards, also dont send the prophet vs icthyids (as they will net him to death; the bull will just laugh at the puny webs) or opponents with long pointy sticks). Dominion 9 (for Awe to pretender and to spread your dominion so that your two superheroes always fight in own dominion), Turmoil 3, Sloth 3, Luck 3, Heat 0, Growth 1 or 2 (can't remember if you can take E4N4 with Growth 2), Luck 3 and Magic 1. Go for Enchantment 2 (to get personal regeration for your pretender), then go to Alteration until you hit Mass Protection -> Your pretender will get more and better self-buffs along the way, while building up the spell-support for your massed maeanads. Profit.

[dirtywick]

It's pretty dependant on the nation, but here's a few things I always consider when designing a pretender:

The pretender is most likely going to be your most powerful unit for a really long time (unless it's sleeping, even then...), so what use do I want for it?

For magic, do I want it to take provinces and use buff spells, give me access to magic/spells/items I would have a lot of difficulty getting otherwise, a huge early research lead, finding a lot of magic sites, get a good bless for my sacred troops at the expense of a possibly powerful or diverse unit, or some combination?

What kind of scales will compliment my nations troops, or more specifically the troops I'll actually be using? Gold expensive troops benefit from order and growth mostly. Resource needs production. The opposite is also true. If I plan on using a lot of magic items/summons, Luck can give gems as random events as well as gold; some nations benefit from a variety of gem types and will benefit from this more than others who have few paths. Mages with old age benefit from Growth, but if your nation has no old troops Death can be an option. Turmoil causes more random events, and with high luck you'll likely get a lot of positive random events. Magic gives research/penetration bonus, Drain a research penalty and more MR to your units. There's ways around both for some nations, like research bonus items or spells/items to boost MR.

Then I look at what I want, and what kind of "state" I guess I want the pretender in. For instance, a strong bless allows you to expand quickly with sacred troops, so choosing an awake pretender isn't as helpful and will free up points for better use. However, a pretender designed to research/site search benefits from starting early and getting the gems/research done earlier, so having them asleep hampers you for a lot of turns. Additionally, a pretender designed for combat should be awake and put to use as early as possible.

You also have to consider the map size and number of opponents as well; a small map will take a much shorter time, so scales like Growth that grow stronger over time or Luck that benefits from more provinces won't have as big an impact as a larger map, or a pretender that's asleep might never awaken before the game is over. The opposite is also true.

Then you have to find an efficient balance between them, using as many points as you can. You won't be able to get a strong pretender chassis, lots of magic and a good bless, and good scales, and have it awake.

I guess the main thing is to take a look at the nation you're playing, figure out their strengths/weaknesses and play them a bit, then you'll have a lot better idea of what kind of pretender will work for them.

Man, might have more questions now than answers. One thing I'll say for certain is Earth is usually a fair choice for a pretender. Blessing gives sacreds reinvigoration which is never a bad idea, and additional prot on the pretender itself, as well as access to some nice buff spells and hammers.

[chrispedersen]

For easy, try mictlan with a F9W9 Dom7 bless. build only sacred troops and priests to bless them. Conquer everything. Repeat.

[OmikronWarrior]

I'd recommend reading up on some of the strategy guides in the similarly named stickied thread. My Midgard guide specifically discusses different pretender builds later in the write up, and so do many others.

Some other food for thought:

There are basically four accepted Pretender builds. Not every Pretender falls neatly in one of these categories, but they are the exceptions, and these are the rules. Adding further confusion, sometimes a physical form is also called one of these categories while an actual build belongs to another. I'll discuss that later. Anywho...

1) Rainbow: A rainbow pretender means multiple magic paths. Usually, these are those 10 or so HP guys and gals with 1 dominion. Why? Because it only costs 10 design points to add another path. These builds are usually awake/asleep.

Uses: If awake, a rainbow can be used to boost early game research. Once some teritory is taken, they are typically sent out to site search giving the nation a magic gem boost. Beyond that, they can help a nation easily break into new magic paths and offer a lot of versatility for supporting armies. For example, a rainbow with fire and death can build flaming skulls, a useful booster that gives +1 to fire magic and helps out fire nations with out death magic. Popular options for the rainbow include the Enchantress and the Sage.

Cons: Low base dominion more or less obsoletes lower starting costs. Also, low HP makes pretender vulnerable throughout game.

2. Super Combatant (SC): This tends to be a go to build for many nations. The idea behind it is simple, have a unit capable of challenging armies on its own from very early on. This type of Pretender is almost always awake and only rarely asleep. Beyond this, there is a lot of diversity in how to build a one man army from the get go. Popular (and widely different) options include the Prince of Death, the Cyclops, Dragons, and the Wyrm.

Uses: A player typically picks up an awake SC to grab more indepent provinces quicker. They also tend to scale in power with research and equipment making them useful deterents to discourage aggressive players from invading territory.

Cons: Some builds, like the no magic path Wyrm, become obsolete soon. Regardless, SC's typically lack the long term advantages of rainbows or a positive scale build and they don't leave players a lot of design points to work with.

3. Bless Builds: Every nation comes with sacred units which can be blessed by priests to gain bonuses based on the starting magic paths of the pretender. For certain nations, these units when combined with the right bless become dominant on the battlefield and able to conquer provinces when outnumbered. For this build, the actual Pretender form is secondary to what paths he has. A typical bless build needs at least one path at level-9, more commonly two level-9 magic paths. The Fire-9, Water-9 combo is especially potent for the insane offensive it provides. These paths cost a ton of pretender ponts, and finding the cheapest way to get the desired paths becomes the best way to go about building a bless pretender. Typically, a bless pretender is imprisoned and only rarely sleeping. That being said, most sacred units are capitol only and can only be build at a rate equal to the current max domain. The Cyclops is a common choice for bless pretenders as the Earth-3 base makes it cheaper to get to Earth-9.

Uses: Blesses are all about early game expansion. Buy the sacreds, add a priest to do the blessings, and sent them off. Then, at some much later point a Pretender with crazy high magic paths shows up as cake frosting.

Cons: These are typically very expensive to build and forces to the player to rely on his sacreds for his early game and often take negative scales.

4) Immobiles: These are sort of a niche Pretender option, as these guys cannot move (though some can teleport). The typical advantages of immobiles is high starting Astral magic (and a high level Astral mage is really useful come endgame), cheaper initial design point costs, and high starting domain. These builds are ideal for getting the highest possible scales. As such, the typical Immobile is either asleep or Imprisoned. The most useful Immobile is probably the Oracle.

Uses: As said above, Immobiles are mostly cheap. Some are useful for getting a specific bless, but if not that, than they are usually picked for scales and Astral magic.

Cons: They cannot move. This means they have trouble contributing early on. They cannot take indie provinces. They cannot search for magic sites. They cannot engage invading armies until your capitol is put to siege, at which point its probably to late for your nation anyways. Admittedly, the spell teleport changes this somewhat (but not for the Sphinx), but getting an immobile is betting on the other strengths of the player's nation prevailing.

5) Misc.: There are other builds. For example, a Ghost King tends to function as a hybrid SC and rainbow (but does neither well). Notice how there is not a specific "high scales" pretender. Some players do at times pursue what is essentially a high scale strategy, but ultimately you have to pick what to do beyond scales and choose one of the above options: more early expansion, more midgame magic, or even more scales.

Hope this was helpful.