HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING

[JR77]

Originally Posted by Baalz

... very strong research ...

I do not really get this one. IMHO this is one of their weak points, but I guess you are thinking of bee-lining const 4 then 6 for skulls and lanterns? That would take quite a while unless you use a sagy pretender (but that is probably a good idea if you want any research done with these guys).

[chrispedersen]

No,

Hinnom doesn't have to build a lab to build a mage. So you stick a fort in a hill or forest. Costs you 800.

You then turn around and move him to a location with no population with a fort/lab so he can research.

It isn't the lack of the cost, although that helps - but the faster scale up is invaluable. In the right terrains you just drop a fort, next turn you have mage support.

[JR77]

I know this is the case, but that requires the right terrain, as you mention, and they still have an awful research-to-gold ratio. And even with good scales, I would think that money would be an issue, if you want to max recruitment of expensive chariots while building forts and recruiting mages. Unless, of coures, you have a vast area of independent farmland to expand into, but that just happens so rarely to me .

I agree that they are very powerful, and perhaps one of the more straight-forward nations (in some areas), but I do not think they are "over-powered" to the extend that they should be banned. Also, being able to steamroll a bunch of normal AIs is not really the test for over-powerment imo. I would rather hear how people have fared in MP.

I have not had a chance to play them pre-nerf, but I can see how that was way too powerful...

[chrispedersen]

Well JR

I took a look at them again - because of our upcoming game.

Try this - make a two player game, map albatha. Try stopping Hinnom as EA Arco. or EA Tir. With fixed starting positions, after turn 3 or so - Hinnom is only prevented by taking (turn number) territories per game turn by geography.

While the death dominion of LA ermor may make you choose to attack elsewhere just because you get so little income from it - and the water terrain of LA-Atlantis may stop you - neither of these nations would be in a position of stopping you from conquering anyone else.

The game becomes - who can *not* lose to hinnom.

[JR77]

OK, I just chose Hinnom, because I had a little experience with them and like their flavor. I will switch to another nation for our MP game

Lets continue this discussion in the MP game forum.

[Baalz]

Originally Posted by JR77

I know this is the case, but that requires the right terrain, as you mention, and they still have an awful research-to-gold ratio. And even with good scales, I would think that money would be an issue, if you want to max recruitment of expensive chariots while building forts and recruiting mages. Unless, of coures, you have a vast area of independent farmland to expand into, but that just happens so rarely to me .

I agree that they are very powerful, and perhaps one of the more straight-forward nations (in some areas), but I do not think they are "over-powered" to the extend that they should be banned. Also, being able to steamroll a bunch of normal AIs is not really the test for over-powerment imo. I would rather hear how people have fared in MP.

I have not had a chance to play them pre-nerf, but I can see how that was way too powerful...

Hmmmm, at the risk of sounding pedantic, did you read the guide that starts this thread? Gold is not an issue if you manage this right, nor is terrain in the vast majority of cases because you can expand insanely fast with modestly priced expansion forces. That means your income climbs much faster than your expenses and you can capture whatever territory you want. FWIW, my experience is not against the AI, and my assertion that you have very strong research is empirically proven.

Ammi are 125 gold for 5 rp (in magic 1) is far from awful, that's actually very good. Even if you manage to scrounge up a better research mage the cost of a lab + temple = another castle, so Hinnom is instantly cranking out twice as many mages as anybody using holy mages. About 60% more than anybody with non-holy mages. In the MP game I based this guide on I just checked where I was at on turn 24 - tied for the research lead with a few SCs fully kitted, 22 blood hunters pulling in about 150 slaves per turn, and cranking out bloodstones. That's quite a lot of forgings (sanguine rods, SC gear, bloodstones) along with a large chunk of bloodhunters for this stage of the game, yet I'm still one of the research leaders. Granted, this is just one game, but I think it's a better illustration than rolling over the AI.

[JR77]

That is is indeed a better illustration, but also, that game was pre-nerf iirc. If it is the consensus of the community that they are still too powerful for MP I just hope they get nerfed additionally either in an official patch or in the next CBM. To me, it is just a too fun nation to be completely left out...

Btw I am a great fan of your guides and writing in general - even if you have to risk sounding pedantic at times

PS In my limited knowledge, Hinnom is not the only nation that can pull the no-lab mage building of. One of the Marignon's can as well, right?

[archaeolept]

Hmmmm, at the risk of sounding pedantic, did you read the guide that starts this thread?

not pedantic, but not especially relevant. The guide was for pre-nerf Hinnom. I'd take claims of their being vastly over-powered more seriously if those complaining had actually won games with them (against reasonably good opponents). The nerf hit them hard, making them only over-powered. They are certainly not as excessive as Ashdod, and probably no more dangerous in EA than a standard Niefl bless.

[Baalz]

Originally Posted by archaeolept

not pedantic, but not especially relevant. The guide was for pre-nerf Hinnom. I'd take claims of their being vastly over-powered more seriously if those complaining had actually won games with them (against reasonably good opponents). The nerf hit them hard, making them only over-powered. They are certainly not as excessive as Ashdod, and probably no more dangerous in EA than a standard Niefl bless.

In Darkparadise I not only won, I completely dominated to the point that in year three I annihilated the second place power (Sauromatia) over two turns before simultaneously declaring war on all remaining players including (all viable positions) Micltlan, Neifelheim, TC, and Lanka (played by K). That, BTW, included posting this guide around year two so everyone in the game knew exactly the strategy I was pursuing. To be fair that was pre-nerf, but I don't see anything in the nerf that negates the fact that Hinnom is strong or very strong in every aspect of the game leading to a cumulative effect of being more than very strong because a lot of it is a multiplicative effect.

When you're among the leaders in province count because of your initial expansion it stacks with your strong scale income and broad ability to site search leading you to likely be leading in gold, gems & research. Your strong giant troops leave you no need for short term magic research goals, start immediately for your optimal medium/long term goals. You've got a strong blood economy and immediate access to massive blood stone forgings and good national summons. You've got top notch SCs along with standard troops & PD strong enough to fight all but the best elites with no support...but then again you've got 2x as many mages as anybody else so then there's no reason they have to.

Yeah, early game Hinnom is comparable to Neifelhiem, the difference is Neifelhiem fades in power as the game progresses and people manage to field counters, while Hinnom starts at the top of the power distribution and steadily gets more powerful (blood stone forging since year one, blood economy, strong research with diverse mages, strong gold & gem income, arguably the best end game summons available to anybody)