Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5

[LDiCesare]

Rather than threadjack another thread, I'd like to point out a few things I dislike in CBM:
-Phoenix pyre for the phoenix is miho overpowered.
-Umbrals at Conj7 instead of 5 ruins EA Agartha.

I understand phoenixes are rather bad in vanilla, but turning them into SC's usable for early expansion seems exaggerated to me. Would you rather have a great bull of a phoenix for initial expansion for instance?

Umbrals are strong, yes. But then what else does Agartha has for them? Rhuax and Barathrus Pact, but Ehuax isn't really awesome and that's about it. Needing Conj7 means EA Agartha needs to find something else to jsut survive until they get to the umbrals, but what? Their troops are still poor, and their mages need schools other than Conj to be useful on the battlefield, which delays umbrals further. Were these nice undead so overpowered EA Agartha dominated the EA? I don't think so.

[chrispedersen]

Regarding the umbrals. I completely agree. I've made the same point a couple of times. So in my balance mods - I knock it back down to conj 5.

Regarding the phoenix - I don't think he's overpowered - great for early expansion, only fair after that.

[Sombre]

Strengthening EA Aggy by putting umbrals back at their lower research level would run counter to the concept behind CBM because the umbrals would still be rather overpowered and would reduce the realistic options for the nation by virtue of their power. I think other elements of EA Aggy should be strengthened instead.

Umbrals are a bit like tarts or jaguar fiends in that they're just crazy cheap for what they do.

[Trumanator]

Phoenix right now is just fine IMO. There aren't a lot of nations that can get much use out of his paths, and while he rapes indies, against human opponents the lack of slots blows.

Umbrals- Sombre kinda has it IMHO. Honestly, I think he should just make the sacreds a bit better, or make some of their troops actually good.

[chrispedersen]

Regarding umbrals: They are not crazy cheap. You get *one* per summoning. And it takes a mage action to do so. And then you have to Gift of Reason them to thug them.

Never mind that you have no viable nature pretenders - so getting a nature path is painful on top of your high cost, high resource units.

Plus you are *well* into mid game before you get access to umbrals.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Sombre

umbrals would still be rather overpowered and would reduce the realistic options for the nation by virtue of their power. I think other elements of EA Aggy should be strengthened instead.

Umbrals are a bit like tarts or jaguar fiends in that they're just crazy cheap for what they do.

WHAT realistic options for Agartha? They *have* none.

Regarding umbrals: They are not crazy cheap. You get *one* per summoning. And it takes a mage action to do so. And then you have to Gift of Reason them to thug them.

Never mind that you have no viable nature pretenders - so getting a nature path is painful on top of your high cost, high resource units.

Plus you are *well* into mid game before you get access to umbrals, as regardless of how much you might wish it you have other research priorities.

More or less awake pretender is required to survice. Good scales are required for units - and you have mediocre mage paths.

[LDiCesare]

From another thread:

CB is ever a work a work in progress, certainly not every change turns out to be a good one. But corrections usually take feedback and debate on the subject, something that crops up suprisingly rarely. It doesn't generally take a lot reverse a CB change, a good argument or just a number of people all agreeing the change is bad.

Of course, perhaps if you consider half of all CB changes unbalanced this may seem far too steep a road to travel. If you still play in CB games though, seems worth a little effort though.

Oh, and I don't really think balance discussion is far off topic in a game thread, after all most balance has a direct effect on the very game we are playing.

I don't think half of the changes are unbalanced. I think there are a few changes which unbalance a lot.
I think EA Agartha is made worthless by CBM, and it's one of my favorite EA nations.
I dislike the fact that I learnt stuff in Vanilla and must learn anew in CBM, but that's just me being lazy.
I also dislike the fact that some changes turn nations into very different beasts between vanilla and CBM (Bogarus and horrors strategy coming to mind).
I know that CBM is popular, and so popular that most games are CBM now and no longer CBM, which I regret for the abovementioned reasons. I can see that there's been a lot of work put in it, and a lot of thinking too.

Now that you've heard my gripes, here is some hopefully constructive feedback and questions.
Be warned, this will be long. I'm picking from the changelog.
Also note I do not have extensive MP experience so I may be doing things that are considered worthless or stupid by better players.

I hope you won't consider this list of "I don't like" offensive, I wouldn't write it if I didn't think CBM is a good work. I'm also not commenting on the good changes because, actually there'd be too much to say.

-Gloves of the gladiator number of attacks increased: Was it really needed? I had some success with these in Vanilla.
-Amphiptere a commander: I know they aren't worth much but flavor wise I don't understand why thy are commanders.
-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.
-Phoenix turned into an early expansion machine. I think it's cheap for what it provides. I think someone who wants an early expansion machine should pick a great white bull and I'm not sure it's still worth buying even in CBM?
-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.
-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.
-catoblepas: I liked them at 15, but if they aren't used much mayb ethey were too expensive.
-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?
-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?
-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?
-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?
-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.
-call lesser horror: I don't like the change. It turns SB into horror nations from the get go. Maybe I should just try to use it, but I think horrors should be R'lyeh only, and I don't think it's thematic for Bogarus to be horror casters.
-Heavenly Fires: I spammed them at 10 mana. At 8 it seems too cheap.
-Celestial Soldiers: Half-cost is a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I agree 15 was a lot, but 10 would be nice without lowering that much.
-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.
-Zmey: If those flew correctly, the cost might not have to be changed? I don't understand why they move as if they didn't have flying. I'd rather increase their APs and increase the cost a bit, maybe not up to the initial 8.
-Oracle: Giving fortune teller may look thematic, but I don't think it has any effect except boosting an already strong choice.
-Titan female: Why does hse get a research bonus superior to that of a sage?
-Lord of rebirth: Didn't need the boost in gems imo. He's a very good chassis for getting EN blesses and getting started in Death too, which complements well some nations he's available for.
-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.
-Tower guard and defender: Are Man LA so strong these need to be more expensive?
-Adonim: Ashdod can expand with 1 Adon built every turn early on and progress exponentially with these guys, yet their cost remains 400? If Talmai Elders cost more, Adonim should also cost more.

[Trumanator]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

Now that you've heard my gripes, here is some hopefully constructive feedback and questions.
Be warned, this will be long. I'm picking from the changelog.
Also note I do not have extensive MP experience so I may be doing things that are considered worthless or stupid by better players.

I hope you won't consider this list of "I don't like" offensive, I wouldn't write it if I didn't think CBM is a good work. I'm also not commenting on the good changes because, actually there'd be too much to say.

-Gloves of the gladiator number of attacks increased: Was it really needed? I had some success with these in Vanilla.
Well, in the absence of complaints about being OPed, CBM changes are considered fine. I've seen a number of posts saying that GotG are only good in CBM.
-Amphiptere a commander: I know they aren't worth much but flavor wise I don't understand why thy are commanders.
Possibly, but then again, there's nothing that says they can't be either.
-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.
Do YOU use the titan? He just doesn't have the utility of a number of other pretenders.
-Phoenix turned into an early expansion machine. I think it's cheap for what it provides. I think someone who wants an early expansion machine should pick a great white bull and I'm not sure it's still worth buying even in CBM?
Baalz suggested a bull for his EA Arco guide if you're wondering, see my previous post re: the phoenix. The bull is generally though considered a crappy expansion pretender, mainly because he lacks slots.
-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.
So mainly you don't like it cuz it annoys you? I wish a better solution could be found too, but it isn't that big a deal, and anything that encourages nationals is fine in my book.
-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.
I'm confused by what your complaint here is. Is it that you still don't use it? How does it make Cons better than Evoc? A little more clarity would be appreciated.
-catoblepas: I liked them at 15, but if they aren't used much mayb ethey were too expensive.
Haven't used them yet, so I can't comment.
-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?
Confused about your complaint here too. I'm assuming you think its still not cheap enough/easy enough to cast?
-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?
Your point? Slime is great, if anything it lets your W mages cast SOMETHING semi-useful
-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?
It doesn't work too much against early SCs, and by the time you get to late SCs you have better things to cast. Do you use it a lot?
-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?
So people might use Orb Lightning, and because A magic is pretty ungodly good.
-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.
What nation besides Machaka is going to cast this?
-call lesser horror: I don't like the change. It turns SB into horror nations from the get go. Maybe I should just try to use it, but I think horrors should be R'lyeh only, and I don't think it's thematic for Bogarus to be horror casters.
Why should horrors be R'lyeh only? Plus this makes MA Aby and Bogarus MUCH better in the early game. Its still tough to use unless you're basing a strategy on it.
-Heavenly Fires: I spammed them at 10 mana. At 8 it seems too cheap.
I don't play TC much, so IDK.
-Celestial Soldiers: Half-cost is a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I agree 15 was a lot, but 10 would be nice without lowering that much.
Same as above.
-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.
I agree to a point, but I think 6 would be fine. I would prefer that Agartha's troops get a major boost.
-Zmey: If those flew correctly, the cost might not have to be changed? I don't understand why they move as if they didn't have flying. I'd rather increase their APs and increase the cost a bit, maybe not up to the initial 8.
Haven't played Bogarus, so IDK.
-Oracle: Giving fortune teller may look thematic, but I don't think it has any effect except boosting an already strong choice.
It doesn't do much, so no big deal to me.
-Titan female: Why does hse get a research bonus superior to that of a sage?
She HAS lived quite a bit longer, and its not like anyone uses her really.
-Lord of rebirth: Didn't need the boost in gems imo. He's a very good chassis for getting EN blesses and getting started in Death too, which complements well some nations he's available for.
I'm not sure about this, but until you get a lot of people thinking its wrong, its tough to know whether its true.
-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.
I don't know what these grey knights are? Indies?
-Tower guard and defender: Are Man LA so strong these need to be more expensive?
Agreed here.
-Adonim: Ashdod can expand with 1 Adon built every turn early on and progress exponentially with these guys, yet their cost remains 400? If Talmai Elders cost more, Adonim should also cost more.
Agreed

I hope you don't take any of my comments personally. I'm just stating my reactions to them.

[chrispedersen]

-Gloves of the gladiator- loved the change.
-Amphiptere a commander: I don't understand the change but I don't care about it either. Still not used.
-Cheaper titan pretenders: good change. Still not used.
-Phoenix love the change. an alternative to the cyclops.
-catoblepas: meh.
-eater of the dead: meh.
-Slime- love the change.
-blindness: Like the change.
-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?Agree with the change.

-the kindly ones: I love the change to this spell. The kindly ones *will* attack your mages, rumors to the contrary. The kindly ones are fairly easily defeated.

-Heavenly Fires: I have no problem with the any of the changes to TC. I play TC extensively and find them underpowered.
-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. Completely agree with original poster. Umbral is the ownly redeeming value in EA Agartha. And you nerfed it.
-Zmey: Cannot be used reliably due to erratic behavior in dominons.
-Bogarus, Horrors: First, horrors are not the province of Rlyeh, who has no notive access to it. It is rather the province of blood nations. Bogarus, mictlan etc. Early horrors made bogarus playable rather. However, I do think they need a national spell rather than allowing already strong nations to have equivalent access.

-Oracle bonus is thematic - I like it.
-Titan female bonus is way to strong, as I opined earlier.
-I like the Lord of Rebirth as is. He is never used in vanilla. I would like to see him extended to Agartha, Ctis, Machaka, and others to name a few.
-Agree about Man LA
-Ashdod needs a major nerf

[quantum_mechani]

I appreciate the feedback, I hope other people also comment on these issues.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Gloves of the gladiator number of attacks increased: Was it really needed? I had some success with these in Vanilla.

I have yet to see them used in any Dom 3 game, vanilla or CB. In fact I was even contemplating perhaps they are not boosted enough. Thinking about it, I think their unpopularity probably has to do with the Eye Shield, for 10n a generally more all purpose SC counter, that also lets you wield another weapon like a frost brand.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Amphiptere a commander: I know they aren't worth much but flavor wise I don't understand why thy are commanders.

So you have a thematic objection to them being commanders? I don't see a huge issue with it, as they are not portrayed as particularly stupid creatures, why they should not be able to act independently (they still can't lead troops).

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.

Well, the problem is when you compare them to base game pretenders like the prince of death. More encumbrance and lack of protection make them much less suited to early expanding, so baring a few of them with a bless niche they need something to set them apart. I suppose I could have gone the other way and nerfed the best vanilla pretenders even more instead, but people already complain about those nerfs. The other question is, by making titans cheaper, what pretenders are they making unusable compared to base game?

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Phoenix turned into an early expansion machine. I think it's cheap for what it provides. I think someone who wants an early expansion machine should pick a great white bull and I'm not sure it's still worth buying even in CBM?

Well, first off, I think it's a hard argument that the great white bull is worse of an option in CB. 50 points cheaper, and more importantly for a trample pretender -1 enc and +2 reinvig. While it competes with the phoenix in CB, the base game equally costed PoD is far tougher competition.

But beyond that, I'm not sure the phoenix is that great an expanding machine. Most expanders pretenders can reliably take a province a turn from turn 2- the phoenix simply can't. And it also fares very poorly in pretender vs pretender fights.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.

That's a reasonable point, the current change doesn't do much, more a statement than anything else.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.

I don't completely understand what you are saying, it doesn't change much to lower it's level, but it makes construction more interesting than evocation?

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-catoblepas: I liked them at 15, but if they aren't used much mayb ethey were too expensive.

Even if they were decent at 15, the lack of use suggest people need a prod to look at them.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?

All i can say is I never saw one summoned before the 1.5 changes, and now I've seen it summoned twice. By the time it goes rogue it's probably tart era, at which point there are a lot of thins to smack it down.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?

People are always complaining water is the weakest path. But more relevantly, if I see something that is nearly useless and can try and make it so people would take it into consideration, I try to do that.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?

The eye shield is also research 2. Also, in dom2 Mackaka used to actually start with blindness and it wasn't even that amazing of a feature.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?

Just trying to bring it in lie with the other bolts spells. It is so much better than the others base game it's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.

I'm not sure it's no-brainer, because it often comes after the caster's empire as well. In fact I once even had it kill the god that cast the global, dispelling itself.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-call lesser horror: I don't like the change. It turns SB into horror nations from the get go. Maybe I should just try to use it, but I think horrors should be R'lyeh only, and I don't think it's thematic for Bogarus to be horror casters.

I hate to break it to you, but Bogarus uses horrors quite prolifically base game as well (just the send horror kind since the battle summon is so crappy). And, in fact, R'yleh has a horribly hard time using horrors in base game or CB.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Heavenly Fires: I spammed them at 10 mana. At 8 it seems too cheap.

That's a pretty minor tweak to think is greatly unbalanced. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain demons of the heavenly fire are too good.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Celestial Soldiers: Half-cost is a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I agree 15 was a lot, but 10 would be nice without lowering that much.

Well, I'll leave that for others to comment on, but again i have not heard any other complaints they are too good.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.

This does seem to be a widely unpopular change. I still think it's justified, but maybe I will look at undoing it. Do you think +1 gem cost would be more acceptable?

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Zmey: If those flew correctly, the cost might not have to be changed? I don't understand why they move as if they didn't have flying. I'd rather increase their APs and increase the cost a bit, maybe not up to the initial 8.

I don't understand- they seem to fly just fine.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Oracle: Giving fortune teller may look thematic, but I don't think it has any effect except boosting an already strong choice.

That's true, but the fortune telling is virtually useless for their traditional imprisoned bless role, while in theory making alternative strategies more viable.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Titan female: Why does hse get a research bonus superior to that of a sage?

Mainly, because I think she needs it more (rainbows get a bunch of extra research from magic picks). Also, it doesn't seem a goddess of knowledge should necessarily be less good at research than an uppity human sage.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Lord of rebirth: Didn't need the boost in gems imo. He's a very good chassis for getting EN blesses and getting started in Death too, which complements well some nations he's available for.

I'll admit, he is not horrible without the gems for some nations. But that is purely due to happenstances that they lack those paths, I was hoping to make him more an option for other nations.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.

Indeed, I think they are very cool myself, which is why I'd like to feel like finding them is a real benefit.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Tower guard and defender: Are Man LA so strong these need to be more expensive?

Not exactly, but they certainly make Man's other troops look bad. Keep in mind CB is not mostly about nation balance, it's about option balance. I could look again at making the other stuff cheaper instead, but keep in mind other people have complained about troops being arbitrarily cheaper in Cb (I like to keep to rules like spear = -1 gold). It's easier to increase cost for elite troops since it's vague exactly how how much bonus stats are worth gold wise.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

-Adonim: Ashdod can expand with 1 Adon built every turn early on and progress exponentially with these guys, yet their cost remains 400? If Talmai Elders cost more, Adonim should also cost more.

That seems a reasonable change.

I am curious though, you said a few changes in CB unbalance things a lot, which of these do you think do that? Most seem like rather niche things (like national spells), thematic complaints, or even just additional change requests CB hasn't made.