M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns

[Cross]

Originally Posted by cbo

Why, then, do you think its take on names are credible....?
cbo

Hi CBO,

I don't. I never used that source to suggest anything about names. That source was merely showing where the armour quote came from. And my reference treated the source with scepticism.

Look, I have constantly agreed with you that 'Wolverine and Achilles' were probably not used by WWII troops. My very first reply to you made that clear, and I've continued to agree with you.

My assertion (stated in my first reply and subsequently) is that the game should use names that are universally accepted and recognised by 21st Century players.

Advanced Squad Leader: Wolverine and Achilles

Battlefront and Flames of War Minatures: Wolverine and Achilles

Bovington Tank Museum: "Precise Name: 17 Pounder Achilles Mark IIc"

But BTM lists this vehicle as "M10 (17Pdr)" which is historically correct.

CBO, remind me never to play ancient Eygyptian/Roman wargaming with you: "Dude, it's not a catapult it's a Catapultae Marcus XVII."

peace,
Cross

[Imp]

We will leave it as you seem to be getting a bit heated & it is after all a game so as long as most people can recognise it thats all thats really required.

As to naming conventions Archer probably implies its a stand off weapon Achillies as in Greek God. And speed compared to the average Brit medium tank of the day yes it was fast. So was the Cromwell & some other rarer beasts

[cbo]

lmp, Cross

When arguments fail, one hears only mockery and silence

I might want to remind Cross, that he initially wrote, as a argument for changing the names of the M10 in the British OOB:

British names
‘Wolverine’, was the British name for the above unconverted M10’s in British service, but Achilles I/II was the official British name for unconverted M10’s, aka. 3in SP Wolverine.

Achilles Ic/IIc, was the British name for M10’s converted to 17Pdr gun. aka. 17Pdr SP Achilles.

As I think we both agree now, Wolverine was never a British name for anything and that Achilles was a name only used within the walls of the DTD, not even being used in manuals for the M10.

In your initial post you never made the argument that the game should use these names because they were in common use or well known by players in the 21st Century.

Hence my argument that it would be silly to change the name from something which obviously works to something which is simply wrong in the case of "Wolverine".

I have no real beef with your revised position that the game should use names that players recognize when possible.

Personally, I would go for something as close to what the vehicles were actually called, if possible, as I see no harm in a game being educational and aid in dispelling old myths, be it with regards to tactics, performance or, in this case names.

cbo

PS: lmp, I'm not getting "heated", I'm just persistent. But I must admit, perhaps, to a slight intolerance of people arguing on the basis of pseudofacts and thing they just make up

[DRG]

With you three going at it , it's like having Chucky back with the echo on.

Point 1--- where I to actually subscribe to the idea that all names of all units in the game should adhere to whatever it was referred to in the "official" field manuals I would, quite often, bump into the hard as bedrock unit name limit on more than a few occasions which would necessitate I deviate from the "official" to make it fit, once I do that a few times any pretext at keeping the game "pure" in this way goes right out the window

Point 2--- One problem we have had in this game was multiple OOB designers using varying naming conventions. We have database checking utilities to help us find things but when one unit or vehicle is named one way in one OOB, another way in a different OOB and yet a third way in a third OOB it makes finding them a PITA . In this case there are variations on M10 17 pdr and "Achilles" and that's just in the commonwealth nations. In the Italian OOB is "Semovente M10" ( there's that "National flavour" some people like and some don't ) and in the US OOB it's M10 (early) and M10 (late). I doubt very much that was the "official" way it was known in the US army at the time but for GAME purposes it helps players spot which was which ( not everyone's a historian ) This has been a problem in SPMBT where occasionally we've had to update some bit of info on some bit of Russian Kit ( for example....) then found someones decided in a couple of OOB's to use the "local" name for it or name it Txx in some and T-xx in others and that's how we end up with the same vehicle with two different stats. We've being struggling to correct all this since the Windows version were released

Point 3-- I will take all of this into consideration and there will be changes made to the next patch and I can promise you that someone is going to be unhappy no matter what I do but from my POV I need all these units with SOMETHING in common in their name so if I need to find all of my "M10's" I don't have to recall all the different nicknames they picked up in the intervening 60 odd years


Don

[Imp]

Ouuuuch

[JohnHale]

Whatever they're called - it's so nice when you immoblise one with a burst of MG34 fire!

[gila]

Originally Posted by JohnHale

Whatever they're called - it's so nice when you immoblise one with a burst of MG34 fire!

Are you talking about the M10,or Imp,Cross and cbo?

[Cross]

Originally Posted by DRG

Point 2--- One problem we have had in this game was multiple OOB designers using varying naming conventions.

I took a quick look at some other nations in the SP OOB, and I see what you mean:

UK: M10

US: M10 GMC

Canada: M10 3-Inch (30,43)
Canada: M10 17-pdr (44)
Canada: M10, SP 17-pdr (155)

France: M10 Wolverine !!! (82,83)

Don,

I genuninely don't mind what you decide. I naively thought I was making a helpful suggestion, particularly for newcomers.

If you do decide to change anything, you may want to look at the above OOBs if you want to make them consistent.

cheers,
Cross

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Cross

If you do decide to change anything, you may want to look at the above OOBs if you want to make them consistent.

cheers,
Cross

All this was done last week. All M10's and their derivatives in SPWW2 are now named "M10" , (whatever gun they are mounting)

No "wolverine" no "Achilles"

Don