Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Maerlande

What would that be Chris? Don't get me wrong. I think the Black Templars have value and I buy them depending on the strategy. I just think they are overpriced. I know you have lot's of MP experience and I'm interested in your analysis.

I doubt I would play a build based on them, but it's possible.

An MR boost would sure help. A suggestion on IRC was made to use them with Legions of Steel which is great except that it's very hard for Ulm to get many LoS casters with only 1/4 of black priests having the capability and only after Conj 3 research. Still, 20 protect +3 is very very nice.

Hey Maerlande,

The fact that because they *can* build guardians, sacred nations don't choose ulm as a target.

I disagree completely with squirrel that bless nations tend to field large armies of smiters. In fact, very few nations field large numbers of H3 priests. Abysia comes to mind.

Secondly; Ulm has a 25% production bonus. This means that it is easier to have dump stats, and translates into a bonus on pretender design.

Finally, I *like* the low MR of ulm units. I don't believe accurate stats are tracked since the recent changes to ulm. However I definitely do not view it as one of the weak nations.

Ulm has a national spell that boosts MR. I would rather increase the AoE of that spell than make any fundamental changes to ulm units.

I won the all ulm civil war (admittedly late age), but I think many of the same principles carry through for ulm from beginning to end.

To me, ulms low MR is a guide that ulm needs to transition from national troops to other things. But due to its forge bonus, or national spells (la) ulm has pretty good options in those areas.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

The fact that because they *can* build guardians, sacred nations don't choose ulm as a target.

Ghoul guardians are neither especially fast nor especially strong defenders. So they are likely to get attacked before attacking, and likely to die when attacked. Defense 6 is pitifully easy to hit, and Protection 19 isn't spectacular without decent defense to keep the number of hits low. Especially since many sacreds used for rushing are going to be offensively powerful, like F9W9 jags or Gibborim with ~20 strength, and so on. The best defense against many of these sacreds is the Templars because they combine good defense with good protection in addition to a good offense.

The problem, of course, is having them get eaten by the opposing prophet (or other H3 priests if they have them) while they are stymying the sacreds. The ghoul guardians might survive smite-spam, but they just keel over and die when anything with plausible offense gets near them.

I disagree completely with squirrel that bless nations tend to field large armies of smiters. In fact, very few nations field large numbers of H3 priests. Abysia comes to mind.

It only takes one smiter to ruin an reasonable force of Templar, since they kill about 3 templar for every 4 smites, and a reasonable force is ~10.

Secondly; Ulm has a 25% production bonus. This means that it is easier to have dump stats, and translates into a bonus on pretender design.

...

Neutral production scales with *turmoil 3* and *cold 3* found me definitively resource limited. Ulm's troops individually take a lot of resources and not much gold with the exception of Templars, who take a lot of both.

Ulm has a national spell that boosts MR. I would rather increase the AoE of that spell than make any fundamental changes to ulm units.

Thaum 4 is kind of late to be fending off a rush, especially as Ulm is not going to be blazing fast in the research department. And only gets E2 on 25% of black priests.

[chrispedersen]

Neutral production scales with *turmoil 3* and *cold 3* found me definitively resource limited. Ulm's troops individually take a lot of resources and not much gold with the exception of Templars, who take a lot of both.

Sorry. I can't imagine taking turmoil-3 with ulm. You have hearty, expensive units. Get the scales to buy them.

More or less you have units with good protection, good precision or strength, good hit points. Your weakness is mobility and magic resistance.

So unit for unit your units compare well in straight out combat against other nations.

Thaum 4 is kind of late to be fending off a rush, especially as Ulm is not going to be blazing fast in the research department. And only gets E2 on 25% of black priests.

Since all of my researchers are black priests.. E2 is never a problem. I like the lower upkeep costs. Reserve the others for blood hunting.

I also like to take an awake or dormant pretender at the worst to take care of the holes in magic paths, act as a deterrent to rushes, and to start using my forge bonus as fast as possible.


Finally, you decried the ghouls defense adn mobility. Once you're going to get hit (def 6) the point is don't try to compensate for it.

Either boost their protection up (legions of steel) or get them berserking - find a shaman.

19 protection isn't great?? huh? Barkskin em, or whatever and most usual troops will take 2-3 hits to kill em. Whereas the converse is not true.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Sorry. I can't imagine taking turmoil-3 with ulm. You have hearty, expensive units. Get the scales to buy them.

I think you missed his point. Even with turmoil 3 cold 3 limiting his gold income, he was still limited by resources in producing black templars, not their gold cost.

[chrispedersen]

I got his point. I just don't agree with it.

You *shouldn't* be building black templars significantly, let alone exclusively.

For example, EA-Ermor has some of the cheapest, most cost effective cav in the game. I *still* don't buy them. Early game you want cost effective expansion. Ermors roti's, and lixard auxiliaries and other troops are much more cost effective. Likewise for Ulm, except in a handful of niches - black templars aren't it.

If you try to expand using a round peg to drive a square hole - yes, you will be limited. Villains, rangers, and various footmen are much more cost effective.

Generally ulm units cost a few gp more than other nations. So I stand by my comments that you need $$ for units, and cannot envision a setup where turmoil-3 works.

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Generally ulm units cost a few gp more than other nations. So I stand by my comments that you need $$ for units, and cannot envision a setup where turmoil-3 works.

In the game where I just beat you, Zebra, I had turmoil 3. And if I could start over I would probably have taken some sloth too and swapped the fountain for a WQ.

I expanded using my starting army + a couple templars(!) for the weak indies and second tier mages casting call horror+retreat with indy scouts following to capture for the moderate to hard ones. Lots of micro but worked like a charm.

Extra bonus is that after initial expansion you already have those mages sprinkled out to blood hunt.