Nations under CBM 1.6

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

Without clams though,your opponents wont field that much astral anymore.

I beg to differ. Most of the really good astral spells do not require massive amounts of pearls, and the fact that astral nations still are astral nations means that they will field astral magic against you. Unless you specifically somehow counter their astral battlefield magic instead of their usually weaker/equal other paths. Lack of clams reduce the amount of wishing and possible empowers, which lets you concentrate your pearl/research resources elsewhere. The nation with reliable national astral magic would be stupid to not use it.

[WraithLord]

Mardagg, your strategy is ok for SP. For MP its problematic. No strong astral is bad in late game. No access to water hurts too. If you make it to late game you'd be left with a bless that is only good for a capital only now easy to counter average MR unit.

Where I fighting your build I'd have MHed all your mages and enslaved/soul slayed your armies. I'd have shut down your capital production as my first shot in the war. Astral pretty much rules end game and your bless has denied you any piece of that cake.

I'd say Machaka needs either awake SC or awake/sleeping rainbow (with s6,d5, w3 for example)

[Sombre]

Shouldn't the hunter spider have str 18?

[Mardagg]

[quote=vfb;725054]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

No it's not, it's 10, which is average (and just 1 less than the rider had). And it's more than 10 if you take an S bless from a rainbow god.

E9 buys you nothing for the late game, and it makes your net income lower.

lol,what do you want to achieve here?
You want to show me how useful spiders are now in later battles vs humans?
MR 10,MR 11,hell even MR14 with S9 blessing are a joke for an Sc type expensive unit.
They are for Early game mainly and to a lesser extend for midgame.
I dont need any MR there,i dont need any S9 there.
S9 makes the hunters much worse in comparison to E9 vs indies and early game humans.
U cant rely on spiders wihtout riders alone for that matter.
IF u would take S9N9,we could talk again.But that really doesnt allow for good scales anymore and still leaves u with a v fragile rider and a durable but weak offensive spider.
And why do you even talk about late game,when i always stated that i concentrate on early game with that blessing??

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Shouldn't the hunter spider have str 18?

after the rider died,they are strength 11,venomous fang attack is strength 2 then.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Mardagg, your strategy is ok for SP. For MP its problematic. No strong astral is bad in late game. No access to water hurts too. If you make it to late game you'd be left with a bless that is only good for a capital only now easy to counter average MR unit.

Where I fighting your build I'd have MHed all your mages and enslaved/soul slayed your armies. I'd have shut down your capital production as my first shot in the war. Astral pretty much rules end game and your bless has denied you any piece of that cake.

I'd say Machaka needs either awake SC or awake/sleeping rainbow (with s6,d5, w3 for example)

yeah ,i know.
Basically i am saying,that a much better early game makes up for that on many maps.
I still got Nature and Death for Tartarians,Astral summons/rituals are a lot less common without clams.
I rely on spiders early to mid,to ideally get number 1 or 2 in provinces.
Then i support them with dragon mastered sorcerers summoining 3 fire drakes per turn and mages.
Late game tartarians with GoH up,due to my early power i should have v high gem income.

And,btw u cant shut down my capital January Year2.
Later on i dont rely on spiders much anymore at all,but i still will have like 50+ hunters left,because they simply never ever die vs indies.
What u are mixing up is my game plan with the general game plan,advisable for standard builds.

i mean common,after all the developers even thought that 120g hunters are balanced.I even took that build for fun purposes at that time and wasnt that disappointed at all.Now you basically get a free spider every 3 u produce.Also u get nice gold income since ur upkeep stays pretty low with those low number sacred units.
we got 33% decrease in cost now,mind you,thats HUUGE!
Maybe even overpowered,seriously.

[WraithLord]

The problem is not the price on hunters. It's lack of synergy.

Your plan sounds ok. I'd even give it a try in a few SP test games. The thing is that no matter how you turn it Machaka still remains a weak nation IMO. I think their mages should be boosted or they should get some unique (sacred --> for bless) summons.

[Jarkko]

Mardagg, it might be a good idea to test your Machaka in MP. From the way it looks to me, it would be very apparent to any human player you rely heavily on capital only sacreds. The AI is not capable of doing the remote attacks, but you can be guaranteed humans will use things like Rain of Toads, Hurricane, Locust Swarms, Blight, Baleful Star on your capital; expect the raiders to land in your capital to wreak even more havoc (Machaka PD sucks donkey balls, so even half-witted raiders will rout the PD). Worse, your mages in the capital will be mindhunted if it is apparent you have zero astral mages there (there will be an Astral projection cast on your capital, and if it succeeds, next turn lots machakan brains will fry).

Those are not late-game strategies, they are the midgame ones; of course you can rely on luck and hope you find a site with astral shamans/amazons, but that would be quite a gamble. Besides, having somebody who can forge Crystal shield and crystal matrixes would be quite a big boon (with the chronical need for firegems Machaka has, one should not forget the possibility of Power of the Spheres and the artifical communions, which save firegems for more urgent needs).

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

The problem is not the price on hunters. It's lack of synergy.

Your plan sounds ok. I'd even give it a try in a few SP test games. The thing is that no matter how you turn it Machaka still remains a weak nation IMO. I think their mages should be boosted or they should get some unique (sacred --> for bless) summons.

My build synergizes great for early game expansion.
I believe this is what makes Machaka strong now.
U believe its the mages.
I dont agree there since u are lacking Astral and Blood.
U want to cut on the weaknesses ,I want to emphazize on the strengths.
Both are valid approaches in general.

boosting their mages will not happen,QM said that.Its not thematic and they are good enough considering they got the spider form for quite a big survivabilty in huge battles.
What i would like to see is making the assassin non cap only.
But that probably not thematic,too.
Increase the PD at least.
I believe Machaka to be pretty good now,if are able to include the 33% decrease in cost for the sacred in your strat somehow.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

Huh?
The rider got a spear in addition to the lance.
In addition,the death poison attack of the rider is strength 18,whereas the spider only bites with strength 13.Thats quite a big difference for such a powerful attack.

It's not a poison attack for either 18 or 13 dam. It's a physical attack, with death poison if the defender takes any damage. I only ever see little green 3s and 4s, no matter if it's the spiders with riders, or just spiders. If you're worried 13 is not enough to punch thru MA armor, you can add B4. You even get a little more out of that spear you like, in that case. I'm not too excited about spears.