Nations under CBM 1.6

[Mardagg]

Jarkko,i only need my capital for the first 12-14 turns so to speak.Once u reach the critical mass of Hunters u dont desparately need to produce them every turn anymore.

Shamans at least u should get,no?
Getting even more lucky with other sites,is at least possible.
u can always paint scenarios on how to crush certain builds.
How do you want do stop 2 hunter armies,E9N4 blessed,16 hunters each,showing up on your borders January Year 2?
Now u can find 1-2 or nations able to do that.
Maybe 1-2 more if they would known before the game that they start as a neigbour of me,using that strat.

@vfb

man.
So first u are telling me the spider is equally good offensive.Now,that u agree the rider has double Number of attack per turn and higher strength for the bite attack,meaning a LOT more offensive power since u are getting swarmed(=battle last quite some time),u just say: no,i am not excited about the spears.
How about saying: Hey,sorry, I was wrong!

You know what,we will see what the future will bring.
Probably it will need some MP Machaka wins or some lost battles vs Machaka for some of you guys until you agree.
Or it will prove ,i was wrong.
Certainly,though,no one of you guys did brought up points that let me to rethink my soon to be MP plan.

Lets move on,...how about MA Abysia now

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

lol,what do you want to achieve here?
You want to show me how useful spiders are now in later battles vs humans?
MR 10,MR 11,hell even MR14 with S9 blessing are a joke for an Sc type expensive unit.
They are for Early game mainly and to a lesser extend for midgame.
I dont need any MR there,i dont need any S9 there.
S9 makes the hunters much worse in comparison to E9 vs indies and early game humans.
U cant rely on spiders wihtout riders alone for that matter.
IF u would take S9N9,we could talk again.But that really doesnt allow for good scales anymore and still leaves u with a v fragile rider and a durable but weak offensive spider.
And why do you even talk about late game,when i always stated that i concentrate on early game with that blessing??

What I want to achieve: I don't want to pay upkeep for my spider horde, that's what I want.

You said spider MR was less than average, and that's wrong, because it's exactly average.

And I do want E+S on my god for the late game. I never said S9. Obviously you are joking about that, since S9 is for low-prot jags/vestals, not for a high-HP regenerating beast.

I don't understand why you say that you only want to concentrate on the early game. You don't even need E9 in the early game, unless you are trying to get all your Black Hunters to survive to the midgame in rider form. If all you want to do is expand in the early game, take an A3W3E3F3N3D3B3S3 bless, that will do you just fine.

If you must know, I'm using a E4N4S4B4 bless.

How well does that work, versus E9N4?

Well, a few more spiders will be in spider form instead of having riders. Damn you riders, die! So you'll still have to fork out some monthly cash for their pensions. But not as much as if they all had riders.

Your god will have done some nice site-searching for you, it's not like you need him fighting. E4N4S4B4 is not all you get with a rainbow, so he can find sites with a minor path like W too. He'll be able to forge lots of nice items, summon some golems, maybe throw in a few surpises here and there. He can make all the rings you want. He can actually dispel stuff.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, admittedly SP, but here's my results with E9 plus some assorted other things (F4S4)

Independents:
As few as 3 spiders routinely beat independents and never acquired either an affliction nor lost a rider.

Typical deployment was 10+ of the machakan spear infantry (no armor, shields) front and center set to hold and attack with spiders (usually 5+) on the side set to attack rear, often leading to the spiders intercepting advancing meleers on the side (breaking up their formation, but generally resulting in at least one spider being swarmed). The good protection helped avoid injuries, but also webbing prevented numerous troops from attacking.

(Archers were used as appropriate against suitable indie types like barbs, although just 3 spiders generally did just fine against tribals or standard (militia/light/heavy infantry + archers) independents in not unreasonable numbers.)

Against AI:
AI armies were slightly more worrying, actually succeeding in occasionally killing a spider or two. Some afflictions resulted, although most of them weren't relevant. (Never Healing Wounds and Weakened are mostly irrelevant, for example. Never saw a crippled or limp black hunter, which would have been the most annoying. The worst affliction i got was diseased, and when the rider died the spider was not diseased iirc).

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

...
@vfb

man.
So first u are telling me the spider is equally good offensive.Now,that u agree the rider has double Number of attack per turn and higher strength for the bite attack,meaning a LOT more offensive power since u are getting swarmed(=battle last quite some time),u just say: no,i am not excited about the spears.
How about saying: Hey,sorry, I was wrong!
...

Oh, thanks.

Yeah, the Spiders get two attacks too, since the 2nd web attack does not depend on the 1st attack doing damage. So, you see a lot more webs too, in spider form. The higher attack in spider form helps too. Glad you finally agree!

[Mardagg]

in my recent SP Game,i did attack 20 Knights,15 longbowman and some chaff with nothing but 7 hunters+prophet and the starting archers on turn 5.

I only lost 3 riders in that battle.

I just took the hunters in front,my archers in that case did not fire archers bc ive often encountered problems there ,with the knights attacking the archers.

Generally some of your own Archers on fire close,hunters in front,is enough for 95% of all indies,losing occasionally a rider only.
Your archers never ever hit your riders(gotta pay attention to your spiders,though) and make the indies rout earlier in close combat vs your hunters.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by vfb

Oh, thanks.

Yeah, the Spiders get two attacks too, since the 2nd web attack does not depend on the 1st attack doing damage. So, you see a lot more webs too, in spider form. The higher attack in spider form helps too. Glad you finally agree!

wow,yeah!How could i forgot that.
Now,is totally obvious that they are at the very least equally powerful as the rider.
Wow,man,i suck.you owned me,man,totally.

[Mardagg]

[quote=vfb;725152]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

What I want to achieve: I don't want to pay upkeep for my spider horde, that's what I want.

You said spider MR was less than average, and that's wrong, because it's exactly average.

And I do want E+S on my god for the late game. I never said S9. Obviously you are joking about that, since S9 is for low-prot jags/vestals, not for a high-HP regenerating beast.

I don't understand why you say that you only want to concentrate on the early game. You don't even need E9 in the early game, unless you are trying to get all your Black Hunters to survive to the midgame in rider form. If all you want to do is expand in the early game, take an A3W3E3F3N3D3B3S3 bless, that will do you just fine.

If you must know, I'm using a E4N4S4B4 bless.

How well does that work, versus E9N4?

Well, a few more spiders will be in spider form instead of having riders. Damn you riders, die! So you'll still have to fork out some monthly cash for their pensions. But not as much as if they all had riders.

Your god will have done some nice site-searching for you, it's not like you need him fighting. E4N4S4B4 is not all you get with a rainbow, so he can find sites with a minor path like W too. He'll be able to forge lots of nice items, summon some golems, maybe throw in a few surpises here and there. He can make all the rings you want. He can actually dispel stuff.

for the record,i said MR is still low.
What i meant by low i did make clear in my last post.
U didnt say at any point in your posts what you are using for magic paths ,u were just randomly nitpicking on my statements,even giving away just plain wrong game info here and there.Overseeing the spear and the much lower strength on the Spider form,just let me to the conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about,at that time.
the spider bite will penetrate alot more often the opponents armor on the rider form,thus triggering the death poison more often.
The fangs of the spider form dont web,JUST LOOK AT THE GAME ONE TIME.So both forms got exactly 1 chance to web.Excuse if i understand your statement there wrong,it was a little confusing.
Your build is interesting.
Sombre came up with that point much earlier though and i did agree.It helps to read the whole thread before posting.
Your build is interesting but much inferior to E9N4 for early game purposes.Just test it and then compare.I did this tests already months ago,when CBM1.6 came out.
E4N4S4x4 awake pretender means worse scales and worse early expansion than my build,using imprisoned pretender.
U solve the S problem though,which i can only solve with having luck.Some riders die,some still dont for you.Its not much upkeep u got less there.Your offensive power for fights vs humans is considerable less though with spiders only.
For midgame though,imagine you got mostly spiders, I got mostly riders.Essentially my troops can survive a lot longer simply bc of the 2 shapes.
Also having Protection 20 is a lot worse than 24.Ive encountered those 4 points of armor make a huge difference in the MA.

[WraithLord]

Come Mardagg, I invite you to use this build in the next MP game I host (after first Sharivar ends). Let's see how it holds up against non newb human players. I'm truly interested in the results and not being sarcastic, condescending or any some such.

[Mardagg]

i am absolutely sure we will meet somewhere in the future

Currently i am doing well in both of my MP games,gotta wait until i am down to 1 game.
I will host a game then,MA standard settings,you are very much invited.
Maybe,just maybe,i will have the surprise effect again then at that time...because atm every non newb would know before the game starts what i am up for.

Actually i am very unhappy about how everyone knows my build beforehand now and especially about how the discussion unfolded.
I should never have posted in detail here

[WraithLord]

looking forward to meeting you in the future

And hey, everyone knows that Mictlan's optimal/popular build is dual+ bless usually s9f9 or that the giant bless nations like E9N6. That doesn't make them weak, not even remotely.