Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion

[Rollo]

Binford - Hey, good to see that Devnull4 PBW game attracted so many players. I won't be able to join, though. Can't handle a large game with short game turns at the moment.

1FSTCAT - Currently changing the tech tree is not an option, since it will mean rework of the AI (again). If you want better sensors, try taking psychic-temporal combo.
Adding a new mount for long range can be considered, though. What kind of ship class did you have in mind for using it?
Heavy Bombardment Missle is already on the list for review the weapons. Along with Grav Hellbores and Incinerator Beam. Expect some changes to it in the next Version (whenever that will be...) .

Mac - Can you be more specific about the Sonne AI? Where exactly are they lacking? Any suboptimal designs or tactics? In my tests when develop them they did pretty good. And I also got good feedback for them so far. Any hints are helpful, if I am to tweak them.

Cirvol - yep, 1.70 is the current released Version.

My apologies for things going slow. But it is summer afterall .

Rollo

[mac5732]

Rollo, following observations in friends 7 games and my on going lst SP game ( all were SP games)

Sonne

1. appears their ability to build ships is limited. the speed in which they build appears somewhat slower the the rest example. human/Ai players build DN in 6 turns, takes Sonne 12, gives human player advantage in numbers. Appears their build cycles are almost twice as long as the other AI's and human player

2. Ship design little weak, they use almost all psy weapons, could use some other big weapons to help out

3. research ability slower then rest. Human/other Ai's have BB's & Dn's, Sonne had CA's

4. Don't appear to build Super DN's, Monitors and super monitors (havn't seen them in the 8 games played so far

Cuppa

1. seem weaker then in 1.84 original, not as fiesty or as strong. appear weaker and weaker in ship production as well, they don't build their ships in the quantities of 1.84. nor are they as strong

Flora

1. weak in intel especialy defensive, easy to steal against

General

Don't see the Ai building Super DN's, monitors or super Monitors, so far very rare if at all, IE' in my Sp game, the Ai"s are using mostly BB's no Dn's etc, as their later on basic warship, gives human player huge advantage, In my game I can see most of the map, however I have only seen l super DN among the 6 races, all the ships/fleets made up of BB's as their big gun ship.

Would like to see AI's use different make ups on their ships, IE different types of BB's some with one kind of weapons, another BB with other types thrown in. (same with all ship designs)

Please these are only my observations, IT's a great mod and I love playing it especially with all the new stuff, this is not in any way shape or form knocking the mod, only observations so far and I could be wrong, (it wouldn't be the lst time ) please don't take my observations in any wrong way... Myself and Mac's trouble makers all really enjoy the game

just some ideas Mac

[Cirvol]

whats considered to be 'unbalanced' currently in terms of racial special techs?

i notice that some 'extra special' stuff comes up when you combine 2 of the big ones...

like org + relig
or psy + tempo
etc etc

what is everyones opinion on the balance?

[Rollo]

Thanks for you feedback Mac. I appreciate it.

I will look into the designs of the Sonne. 12 turns for a DN is a long time indeed, esp. since they should use Temporal SY. Perhaps they use too many expensive weapons. But also from the other observations, maybe they just had a bad start. That would explain why they underperform in so many issues.

Your observations about the AI is correct. I often have them use BB as ship-of-the-line for some time. Each of the AI goes through different stages and a new ship size often goes hand in hand with a change of weapons and/or combat tactics, but they should all build DN and Super-DN eventually. About Monitors and Supermonitors, I am not so sure. Could be that I didn't do designs for them, but it has been a while since I Last worked on them. My new (yet unrealesed) temporal AI does use them, though.

There is always a certain element of chance, whether a race is doing good or not. Depending on the planets the AI finds early in the game. This especially true for Devnull Mod, where the chance of the AI lacking a resource is higher compared to unmodded SE4. This is not meant as an excuse and I have already improved the AI on that issue. I take your feedback seriously and will look into that.

Last but not least I like to say that I attempted to make the AI really different from each other: different weapons, tactics, priorities, and use of units. Not all of these choices are maximized to efficiency and make the AI as strong as possible, but I feel they make the game richer. (Heck, when I did the Flora, I just thought I had a nifty and different concept. It wasn't my goal to make them a killer AI. Just try something new.)

Last item: I am curiuos. What bonus do you give the AI in your SP games usually?

Rollo

[Rollo]

Originally posted by Cirvol:
whats considered to be 'unbalanced' currently in terms of racial special techs?

i notice that some 'extra special' stuff comes up when you combine 2 of the big ones...

like org + relig
or psy + tempo
etc etc

what is everyones opinion on the balance?

Heh, I am not entirely sure myself here. I don't know if there has been enough playtesting for the combo techs. So far none has come forward and say: "Hey, this is too strong!"

Some of the combo techs are probably weaker or not so interesting as others. Personally I would be interested in a small PBW game where every player has to take at least two racial traits and get some feedback that way.

On overall balance I think DNM is a lot better balanced then SE4 standard. In fact when you look at the issues in the balance thread, most of them have been adressed in this mod.

Rollo

[Devin Bass]

FYI Rollo,
I am currently playing the latest Devnull Mod and my Sonne are very tough! They are at the top of the food chain! I am only at Turn 155 and I regularly see fleets of 50-60 superdreadnaughts and accompanying Assault carriers. I have played several games and the Sonne are usually at the top or very near the top. They make killer ship designs too.
My game settings were large galaxy, high difficulty, mediumn AI bonus 13 players I also used Fryon's map generator.

Also, when is the next update coming? This mod is too good not to keep it going.

In the meantime, Thanks for all the hard work!

[mac5732]

Rollo, tks for feedback, usually High Aggressive, Med Bonus, however, when lst learning a new mod I usually use Low Bonus in order to learn the new additions. Also depends on what if any handicap I give myself against the AI players.

Current Game I'm using 2 Monster Races I'm a glutton for punishment...

Currrent Game, Sonne in 2nd Place, no Super DN's or Dn's yet, they are still building slow, they ar at level 9 in ship construction, Turn 2419.3 Your right about the BB's, but you may want to re-look the time table the AI's use before buildiing the bigger ships,,, you know us humans, we like to walk soft and carry big sticks, the bigger the better and all that A human will build the big stuff as soon as he can, The AI then might be at a disadvantage if they have slower build data for the bigger ships... They have the Tech, just not building any right now...

but on the other hand, I don't mean to upset the play balance as AI's with bigger ships might unbalance the Monster ships.. Will have to play some more However, friend of mine has played the game 8 times and has seen the same type of observations..

I haavn't seen any big 50-60 Sonne Fleets yet, but that might be because they are fighting the Monsters ??

Any way, love the game, look foreward to your newest race addition you mentioned...

PS. My friend lost the lst 5 games he played, the Monsters Schlocked him...

also on some of the Ai's ships, I noticed 2 Master Computers, is this on purpose ?

just some ideas Mac

[ August 03, 2003, 03:41: Message edited by: mac5732 ]