Magic Items under CBM

[Jarkko]

I don't like the two handers getting too high Defense bonuses. They already are longer and thus will be able to repel, and they are not IMO so "agile" that it would warrant an increas on Defence stats. I mean, you are not supposed to be as good defending with a two-hander as you are with a one-hander + shield, right?

I'd like to suggest letting the Defense numbers be as is, just fix the the damage and attack values (and the charge bonuses for spear type weapons, I like that idea).

[Sir_Dr_D]

There was some arguments earlier on giving the two handed swords higher defense, so I put it in. It is to make up for the fact that repel is not all that good. It simulates swords being made for parrying, and it being harder to get close to a person with a 2 handed weapon. The defense is still not nearly as good as what you would get with a shield, plus you don't get the extra benefits that you would get from the extra sheild slot.

But You make a good argument. We will see what other people say.

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

I don't like the two handers getting too high Defense bonuses. They already are longer and thus will be able to repel, and they are not IMO so "agile" that it would warrant an increas on Defence stats. I mean, you are not supposed to be as good defending with a two-hander as you are with a one-hander + shield, right?

Well, the shields do tend to have extra effects that are the source of most of their actual defensive power. The air shields don't, the lead shield is the only one that's purely earth that provides an extra effect, and all of the other shields provide secondary effects that are arguably more powerful than the extra protection and parry they provide. Luck, vines, eye loss, lightning damage, fire shield or awe, etc. A two-handed weapon has to offer something useful in order to be as good as those effects.

[Sir_Dr_D]

In comparing the defense values you would get with the stats I gave , to thsoe of a shield, I think Jarkko may right. You would get almost the same defense value with a shield, that you would with a two handed weapon. I think that at most the defense should be raised by 1 instead of 2, if at all. Note that those weapons I listed are all const-0. So they should only be compared to const-0 single handed weapon and shield combos.

[Mardagg]

For a start, I like your changes.
Some general thoughts:

A problem with the 2handed Bane Blade weapon is,that its used by Bane`s and Bane Lords.

Also,its important to consider the constr level and the gem cost,especially when altering level 0,5 gem weapons.

Personally i would prefer to agree on the exact changes for the Wraith Sword first.Then we would have a nice and more expensive weapon to be compared to for balancing reasons.

Wraith Sword:

15 Dgems,Path 3D( 25Dgems,4D before)
Construction Level: 6

Damage- 16 (+7)
Attack- 4 (+2)
Defense- 5 (+2)
Length- 3

Partial Life Drain

overpowered?

@Jarkko

I thought the same about the defense bonis before,but Sombre had a good point about that.
I now think,some increase in def for the 2h swords,only the swords,are ok. Especially for the Wraith Sword,i think its thematic anyhow.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

For a start, I like your changes.
Some general thoughts:

A problem with the 2handed Bane Blade weapon is,that its used by Bane`s and Bane Lords.

Also,its important to consider the constr level and the gem cost,especially when altering level 0,5 gem weapons.

Personally i would prefer to agree on the exact changes for the Wraith Sword first.Then we would have a nice and more expensive weapon to be compared to for balancing reasons.

Wraith Sword:

15 Dgems,Path 3D( 25Dgems,4D before)
Construction Level: 6

Damage- 16 (+7)
Attack- 4 (+2)
Defense- 5 (+2)
Length- 3

Partial Life Drain

overpowered?

- We can always decouple the 'weapon' used by the bane lords, with the bane weapon that we can construct. They can have different stats.

- What I am trying to do is raise the stats of the two handed weapon so that they are just as valueable as the one handed weapons. What should be asked is how the new statted two handed sword of sharpness compares with a single handed sword of sharpness used in combo with one of the level 0 shields. If with these new stats, people would always use the two handed version, then these stats are too powerfull. If people still almost always use the sword shield combo, even at construction level 0, then these new stats cannot be overpowered.

- I like your stats for the wraith sword. It seems about right.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Sir_Dr_D

- We can always decouple the 'weapon' used by the bane lords, with the bane weapon that we can construct. They can have different stats.

yes.
But i dont think thats a good thing to do.
Seems not thematic for a low level item.
I would prefer to slightly tone your ideas down there.Otherwise the already pretty cheap and good banes could be too useful as suicide thugs.
2h Bane Blade
damage: 11(+2)
att: 3(+1)
def:3(+0)

What do you think?
Generally,the decay effect,not bad for early game/Assassins, should be the main reason to build it anyways and is the problem here regarding 1h vs 2h regardless of the changes that are done.
Another idea could be,stats staying the same,but giving it the life after death tag,sombres idea here.Not too useful,but funny.

- What I am trying to do is raise the stats of the two handed weapon so that they are just as valueable as the one handed weapons. What should be asked is how the new statted two handed sword of sharpness compares with a single handed sword of sharpness used in combo with one of the level 0 shields. If with these new stats, people would always use the two handed version, then these stats are too powerfull. If people still almost always use the sword shield combo, even at construction level 0, then these new stats cannot be overpowered.

Yes, and i completely agree with the pike.
Astral is very precious in CBM anyways,so making the pike a better choice for early game is nice ,imo.
But,for the matter of the sword of sharpness...its like someonelse mentioned: low level shields dont offer much.
And 1h weapon + shield is 10 gems,whereas 2h is 5 gems.
Early game,Dwarfen hammers are also seen less frequent,so that difference isnt neglectable imo.

I would prefer to see here :
2h sword of sharpness
damage:14(+2)
Att:3(+1)
def:4(+1)

[militarist]

About 2H swords.... I don't really think that doubling damage of the same 1H sword is a good idea. In such case 1H will do MUCH MORE damage on more unit than 2 hits by 1H swords because of game mechannics. And it will greatly change the game. SCs, who bet on protection will be much easier to fight against. I agree though that 2H weapong should be improved, I almost never use it now.

When we forge a weapon agains PD, we do AoEs.
The question is, when we will use 2H weapon?
It's obvious that mostly against SCs and nations with heavy protected units (if he will be lucky to get to them).

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

I don't like the two handers getting too high Defense bonuses. They already are longer and thus will be able to repel, and they are not IMO so "agile" that it would warrant an increas on Defence stats. I mean, you are not supposed to be as good defending with a two-hander as you are with a one-hander + shield, right?

I'd like to suggest letting the Defense numbers be as is, just fix the the damage and attack values (and the charge bonuses for spear type weapons, I like that idea).

Which context? In a duel or in line formation?

In line (ie, as a unit): I will note the swiss pikemen were the premier military unit for over a century following the introduction of the pike. So certain were they of their defensive advantages they didn't even wear greaves. Pikes certainly gave tremendous defensive advantage, and the poor excuse that is repel doesn't even begin to account for this.

Duel: A 2h sword is arguably superior to a 1h sword in a duel on the defensive. The 2h Sword is more maneuverable because it has 2 hands providing impetus, and capable of changing direction more rapidly. Especially as a well-made 2 handed blade didn't weigh anywhere near double the weight of a 1h sword. (Unless you want to talk about stuff like rapiers - but rapiers are rather past the tech levels involved, and useless against heavier armors). Parrying would have been a more effective and advantageous counter in a duel than blocking with a shield - in a parry you retain control over directionality (can direct your opponent's blade) and you don't give up line of sight to his weapon. Obviously, I'm assuming the person holding the weapon understands how to use it.